Show us.
- burn

Gonchar. And he's 40.

even then... when you play against the best you are going to get beat.. even if his partner was an all star

top end offensive players get paid the way they do because they have the ability to beat the best defensive players

if they couldnt.. they wouldnt be top line

its really a very simple concept.. well to me it is
- Dozzer

agreed.

and get scored on more??
- burn

yeah... he is failing to consider the matchups

they wouldnt be nearly as effective offensively if they were matched up against the top forwards in the league.. they would constantly be getting hemmed into their own end.

i would argue their offensive totals would drop honestly

even then... when you play against the best you are going to get beat.. even if his partner was an all star

top end offensive players get paid the way they do because they have the ability to beat the best defensive players

if they couldnt.. they wouldnt be top line

its really a very simple concept.. well to me it is
- Dozzer

This makes a lot of sense. Oddly enough, the guys who finished around Phaneuf in Norris voting had negative +/- ratings (Kronwall, Weber, Markov, Byfuglien... Pietrangelo was even).

The Norris runner up, Ryan Suter, had a whopping +2. It is apparently pretty hard to be a clear-cut #1 defenseman. You definitely carry the load.

Dude his nums against the big forwards are terrible. Other lesser touted guys from other teams do better. Look up his matchup stats against those top lines, it's utterly gross - not for a guy making 5 a year paired with another guy making 5 a year - bad for a guy that is gonna get 7 plus million after this year.
- aminnes

you make these claims yet fail to provide any names

where did kostka sign again?
- Dozzer

Black HAwks.

Dude his nums against the big forwards are terrible. Other lesser touted guys from other teams do better. Look up his matchup stats against those top lines, it's utterly gross - not for a guy making 5 a year paired with another guy making 5 a year - bad for a guy that is gonna get 7 plus million after this year.
- aminnes

A lot of the big name forwards were below their average ppg against the rest of the conference when they played the Leafs, a lot of that time playing against Phaneuf. He did a good job on tough competition last year imo

I don't expect him too, but for 7 million over 7 years he better, and those guys do both. Great d men have a good plus minus because they score and play good in their own end.
To be a mid level defender who scores points brings with it a 5 million dollar salary.
- aminnes

Letang's agent disagrees.

Gonchar. And he's 40.
- aminnes

is not very good defensively anymore

Show us.
- burn

Keith and Seabrook make less than 6 each. Subban, Franson, Voynov, Beauchemin, Hamhuis, Larsonn, just go down the list. ALl making less than 6 million.

Letang's agent disagrees.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Agreed, and Pittsburgh is the next TB of 5 years ago after this season.

This makes a lot of sense. Oddly enough, the guys who finished around Phaneuf in Norris voting had negative +/- ratings (Kronwall, Weber, Markov, Byfuglien... Pietrangelo was even).

The Norris runner up, Ryan Suter, had a whopping +2. It is apparently pretty hard to be a clear-cut #1 defenseman. You definitely carry the load.
- Leeman4Gilmour

when judging a players merit.. you need to look at who he matches up against

play phaneuf against third and fourth lines with PP time and i guarantee you he will produce an absurd amount of offense.

but then you would have guys who have no business defending the guys like crosby trying to do just that.

Not to mention Phaneuf played PK and PP and both special team units were good, especially PK was one of the league's best. If the whole D corps is thin, and Phanuef is playing the most minutes and he sucks, how is this possible? The answer is Phaneuf doesn't suck in fact he's good. Very good.

you make these claims yet fail to provide any names
- Dozzer

People have posted them here before, you were in on that thread. I'm not gonna take the 30 mins.

when judging a players merit.. you need to look at who he matches up against

play phaneuf against third and fourth lines with PP time and i guarantee you he will produce an absurd amount of offense.

but then you would have guys who have no business defending the guys like crosby trying to do just that.
- Dozzer

But then he would play with Orr or Kulemin up front instead of Kessel or Kadri, no ?!?

Eff Gunnarsson. I rode an elevator with him and Schenn in TB and I could probably snap his pencil neck with one hand. We don't need d like him.
I also got the feeling that if I told Schenn a riddle he would have an aneurysm.

Keith and Seabrook make less than 6 each. Subban, Franson, Voynov, Beauchemin, Hamhuis, Larsonn, just go down the list. ALl making less than 6 million.
- aminnes

you might want to check your facts.

duncan keith has a cap circumventing contract.. this year he is slated to make 7.65million

seabrook made 7 million the last two years... only now is he dropping to 5 million AND it was signed when he was RFA

People have posted them here before, you were in on that thread. I'm not gonna take the 30 mins.
- aminnes

then your argument carries no validity

Gonchar. And he's 40.
- aminnes

Not even close.


(frank)s sakes!!

Dions scored more than him the last 3 years and is way better defensively.

Hey, guys, the way I see it, lets see them do it. Pay him 7x7 or whatever crazy number he's gonna get, roll him out there 30 minutes a game and see if the Leafs win a cup. When they make the conference finals or something you can all call those of us who don't think he's worth that idiots, I'm fine with that. I hope if they keep him it happens quite frankly. Just remember, you were all the same guys saying how terrible the Kessel deal was and we now see that fruition of that deal...

Dude his nums against the big forwards are terrible. Other lesser touted guys from other teams do better. Look up his matchup stats against those top lines, it's utterly gross - not for a guy making 5 a year paired with another guy making 5 a year - bad for a guy that is gonna get 7 plus million after this year.
- aminnes

it's a team indicator before a player indicator. to use it in an argument of somebody's skill is so wrong it's completely reaching. I hate #3 but I know the +/- ain't worth poop

then your argument carries no validity
- Dozzer

I'll lose sleep tonight.

Eff Gunnarsson. I rode an elevator with him and Schenn in TB and I could probably snap his pencil neck with one hand. We don't need d like him.
I also got the feeling that if I told Schenn a riddle he would have an aneurysm.
- Skalapy

But then he would play with Orr or Kulemin up front instead of Kessel or Kadri, no ?!?
- fidopro

not so cut n dry

what i mean is phaneuf's responsibility is primarily to shut the best the opposition has down.

if those chains were freed and he could play matchups like franson or gardiner gets he would be far more productive. no question.

I'll lose sleep tonight.
- aminnes

clever.

an argument without fact is just opinion. not going to convince anyone of anything like that.