Meaning done in development. He won't get any better.
- aminnes

I'm OK with that. He's 28 years old. Usually done developing by then. Guys a top end scorer for christ sakes.... what more development are you looking for.

He's considered a big smelly turd so I don't know how he's overrated.
- RogerRoeper

You got me.

Aulie isn't even close to what he may end up, he's 23 years old. Holzer and Kostka looked like crap. Period. Not to say they can't improve but Dion surely didn't help them be better thats for suer, hence the demotions.
- aminnes

Anybody else got.the balls to admit that they thought kostka looked like a diamond in the rough at the start of the year?

His betterment in his own end was directly due to the better goaltending. He was till a fat minus even with a top 10 sv behind him though, and points.
- aminnes

i dont put a lot of stock in plus minus truthfully

of course it was negative.. he played against the best offensive players in the conference.

expecting a d-men to shut down the best offensive players in the east night in and night out is just absurd truthfully

His betterment in his own end was directly due to the better goaltending. He was till a fat minus even with a top 10 sv behind him though, and points.
- aminnes

Phanuef was better because of goaltending?? Ummm that makes no sense.

Anybody else got.the balls to admit that they thought kostka looked like a diamond in the rough at the start of the year?



- weirdoh

i liked it.. i was happy.. but i was suspicious

i hoped tho.. i really really hoped

I'm OK with that. He's 28 years old. Usually done developing by then. Guys a top end scorer for christ sakes.... what more development are you looking for.
- burn

Do the Leafs need an offensemen with whats in the system? And with Fransons offensive capabilities?

i dont put a lot of stock in plus minus truthfully

of course it was negative.. he played against the best offensive players in the conference.

expecting a d-men to shut down the best offensive players in the east night in and night out is just absurd truthfully
- Dozzer

and all by himself..... covering up for AHL players.

that would depend on who you ask
- Dozzer

The thing is, to be so overrated, one must get so much acclaim without much, if any, criticism. Dion is laughed-at by sop many in the NHL.

i dont put a lot of stock in plus minus truthfully

of course it was negative.. he played against the best offensive players in the conference.

expecting a d-men to shut down the best offensive players in the east night in and night out is just absurd truthfully
- Dozzer

Cripes. it's not even about who they play against. his toi was high. more chances for everybody else to (frank) up on his watch. (frank) the +/-. wasn't even 'legit ' until.the 70's.

Do the Leafs need an offensemen with whats in the system? And with Fransons offensive capabilities?
- aminnes

The more points the better, no??

Phanuef scores more points then them (at this point) and is much better defensively.

i liked it.. i was happy.. but i was suspicious

i hoped tho.. i really really hoped
- Dozzer

I knew it was too good to be true when Jim hughson was pleased with him.

i dont put a lot of stock in plus minus truthfully

of course it was negative.. he played against the best offensive players in the conference.

expecting a d-men to shut down the best offensive players in the east night in and night out is just absurd truthfully
- Dozzer

I don't expect him too, but for 7 million over 7 years he better, and those guys do both. Great d men have a good plus minus because they score and play good in their own end.
To be a mid level defender who scores points brings with it a 5 million dollar salary.

The more points the better, no??

Phanuef scores more points then them (at this point) and is much better defensively.
- burn

If Gardner or Franson played as much as he does they would score every bit as much or more.

and all by himself..... covering up for AHL players.
- burn

even then... when you play against the best you are going to get beat.. even if his partner was an all star

top end offensive players get paid the way they do because they have the ability to beat the best defensive players

if they couldnt.. they wouldnt be top line

its really a very simple concept.. well to me it is

Aulie isn't even close to what he may end up, he's 23 years old. Holzer and Kostka looked like crap. Period. Not to say they can't improve but Dion surely didn't help them be better thats for suer, hence the demotions.
- aminnes

How many players in the NHL could play regular minutes (huge minutes) with AHLers against the league's best players and make them look like legit #2 defensemen?

Maybe 2 or 3? Maybe?

The point is that Holzer and Kostka were, at the very least, serviceable NHL players when they played with Phaneuf. They actually both had some pretty decent runs before they were exposed.

and all by himself..... covering up for AHL players.
- burn

Gunnerson is a better positional defensemen than Phaneuf is.

Cripes. it's not even about who they play against. his toi was high. more chances for everybody else to (frank) up on his watch. (frank) the +/-. wasn't even 'legit ' until.the 70's.
- weirdoh

yup, but who does matter.. he was used to shut down the likes of malking staal crosby ovechkin etc.

yeah.. you're gonna lose those matchups sometime even if you were the best d-man ever to play the game

If Gardner or Franson played as much as he does they would score every bit as much or more.
- aminnes

gardiner and franson would make phaneuf look like a defensive all star if they got the match ups he had to deal with

I don't expect him too, but for 7 million over 7 years he better, and those guys do both. Great d men have a good plus minus because they score and play good in their own end.
To be a mid level defender who scores points brings with it a 5 million dollar salary.
- aminnes

okay.. so you think a 7 million dollar guy should be in norris contention every year?

fair enough.. but its simply not true

Gunnerson is a better positional defensemen than Phaneuf is.
- aminnes

has to be.. has half the skill.

I knew it was too good to be true when Jim hughson was pleased with him.
- weirdoh

where did kostka sign again?

I don't expect him too, but for 7 million over 7 years he better, and those guys do both. Great d men have a good plus minus because they score and play good in their own end.
To be a mid level defender who scores points brings with it a 5 million dollar salary.
- aminnes

Show us.

If Gardner or Franson played as much as he does they would score every bit as much or more.
- aminnes

and get scored on more??

yup, but who does matter.. he was used to shut down the likes of malking staal crosby ovechkin etc.

yeah.. you're gonna lose those matchups sometime even if you were the best d-man ever to play the game
- Dozzer

Dude his nums against the big forwards are terrible. Other lesser touted guys from other teams do better. Look up his matchup stats against those top lines, it's utterly gross - not for a guy making 5 a year paired with another guy making 5 a year - bad for a guy that is gonna get 7 plus million after this year.