Done with this argument. And you.

Apparently you are one of these emotional 12 year olds who takes no responsibility for what he says, puts words in my mouth, etc., all to be an internet message board attorney/tough guy.

Whatever.

You and a few of your buddies keep fawning over Corey Crawford. The rest of the hockey world is and has been taking a pass.
- John Jaeckel

personal shot again, I see. I am talking about the Hawks goalie situation and you continue with personal cheap shots.

To get into the NHL, you have to be the best of the best. It is rather simple logic. Many will argue with it, but go and apply to be a goalie tomorow at Hawk Human Resources, tough gig to get.

I said this a few times before as well. This whole grading guys out, I understand to an extent, but at the NHL level or the top of any professional sport, the margins many speak of are razor thin. To suggest in this day and age that there is some huge chasm between guys is ridiculus. The only logical place for the debate is to ask if you had to pick a goalie for a big game, that is where it would be fun and reasonable to kick around and debate who is a big game goalie. As we see year to year, many big game goalies do not get to play in big games. Another irony.

I for one have been most baffled by the idea that the 2010 team was head and shoulders above this team, yet CC totally outplayed Niemi from start to finish. That explanation is the great defense. Which is it?

To rationalize CCs play and discount him now is beyond ridiculus. If one wants to say they don't like him, or he is not their kind of guy. Fine I respect that. To split hairs on a whole bunch of other stuff, especially the plain review of his statistics, regardless, just does not add up in court.

Now before we get all the you love CC and he is going to hall of fame responses by the CC skeptics, relax. Where in any of this did I state this?
- TrueGrit

The argument is and has been whether he's worth $5 million a year on the Hawks. Not whether he's elite.

No one can counter the obvious reasons like: downward salary cap adjustment, likely availability of equal or better replacements, other cap obligations the Hawks will have, what they have slotted for their #1 goalie, etc

Even though now one poster wants to make it about my saying he's not "elite." Which he isn't.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether he will get $5 million a year. Which barring a series of events like Crawford really stepping up this year, Raanta flopping, no other goalies being available is unlikely.

personal shot again, I see. I am talking about the Hawks goalie situation and you continue with personal cheap shots.
- mohel

Project much? You must be very successful in all your relationships. Even if I am taking personal shots, you aren't?

You aren't going to "win" this, counselor. So keep going. It is becoming more amusing.

This.

They are as a group, certainly not all, either washed up, have injury issues, or good as a backup only.

I think the captain will set the tone for contract talks. Let's hope winners want to stay winners.
- Return of the Roar

I hope Crawford will go for a short (prove it) contract in the $3.5-$4 range, which will set him up for a big payday after that when he is in his early 30's.

OH come on TG don't start being the devil's advocate just to be the devil's advocate. You know very well that once you get to the NHL goalies are re-catagorized against their peers as below average, average, above average and elite. And I personally think Crawford falls in between average and above average.
- paulr

I do not disagree, on the other hand in CC's situation, many people would celebrate a guy who has literally paid his dues and hung in there, getting booted to the back of the line time and again, to only end up getting a chance and getting the job done.

In the old era of run and gun hockey, goalies were more artists than in todays game. Their individual sparkle was evident. Today's game is about consistency. I believe it was you who made the brilliant comment about the state of goaltending in Canada and the cookie cutter/no improv mantra of the position.

The funny part of all of it is that the Hawks won two cups with 2 unproven goalies, who conventional wisdom suggested they would not be able to win a cup with those guys. I am speaking broadly of the hockey media and inteligencia.

One of my favorite sports cliches....the game is not played on paper. And that is why they play the game.

This may come as a shock to some, but all NHL goalies are elite.
- TrueGrit

You are close to correct on that one....at least most of the starters...the transistional guys working their way up, and there are lots of back ups who are talented but proabbaly couldn't go an entire season as the mule...

I I believe it was you who made the brilliant comment about the state of goaltending in Canada and the cookie cutter/no improv mantra of the position.

The funny part of all of it is that the Hawks won two cups with 2 unproven goalies, who conventional wisdom suggested they would not be able to win a cup with those guys. I am speaking broadly of the hockey media and inteligencia.

- TrueGrit

Wait until you see how not cookie cutting "Ranttee Antaaa" is!

Project much? You must be very successful in all your relationships. Even if I am taking personal shots, you aren't?

You aren't going to "win" this, counselor. So keep going. It is becoming more amusing.
- John Jaeckel

You use that one a lot. I think my relationships with most of the board are pretty good - it is you that for some reason gets all worked up over me. Not sure why, but it is no biggie. My relationships outside of here are good, too, thanks.

You are close to correct on that one....at least most of the starters...the transistional guys working their way up, and there are lots of back ups who are talented but probabaly couldn't go an entire season as the mule...
- wiz1901

Very comparable to MLB and hitting. The difference between a career AAA hitter and a major leaguer is one or two hits a week.

Same with goalies. The difference between good and elite is hundreths of percentage points on the save percentage metric. It is also no coincidence that today's "elite" goalies all belong to defense first teams.

In the end it is a team game.

You use that one a lot. I think my relationships with most of the board are pretty good - it is you that for some reason gets all worked up over me. Not sure why, but it is no biggie. My relationships outside of here are good, too, thanks.
- mohel

I'm happy for you. And thank you for monitoring what I "use" and how frequently. Interesting. Is this part of your job?

If I need some metrics and someone who is themselves beyond reproach to keep me in line, I know who to ask.



You are entertaining.

Wait until you see how not cookie cutting "Ranttee Antaaa" is!
- wiz1901

K, Bill, answer me this.

Why did the Hawks quietly jump into the Raanta Sweepstakes and say or do whatever was necessary to sign him?

Did they not scout him? Did others teams not scout him? Were his numbers in FInland a mirage?

There is handwriting all over this wall. Really kind of shocking to me how few can actually see it.

You are close to correct on that one....at least most of the starters...the transistional guys working their way up, and there are lots of back ups who are talented but proabbaly couldn't go an entire season as the mule...
- wiz1901

OK, sure, again, why can't anyone see this is all about the frame of reference?

When you talk about elite NHL ghoalies, you are talking about a frame of reference that includes 60 goalies, of which maybe 10 are elite.

When you are talking about all professional goalies (AHL, KHL, NHL, SM-Liiga, Elietseren, Switzerland), you are talking about a frame of reference that includes 500 goalies, of which those 30 starting in the NHL could be considered elite.

The argument is and has been whether he's worth $5 million a year on the Hawks. Not whether he's elite.

No one can counter the obvious reasons like: downward salary cap adjustment, likely availability of equal or better replacements, other cap obligations the Hawks will have, what they have slotted for their #1 goalie, etc

Even though now one poster wants to make it about my saying he's not "elite." Which he isn't.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether he will get $5 million a year. Which barring a series of events like Crawford really stepping up this year, Raanta flopping, no other goalies being available is unlikely.
- John Jaeckel

I understand what JJ is saying. I have a few questions though.

If Crawford keeps on the upswing, is he worth 4-5 mill? With a 64 mill cap, probably not. If the cap goes up to 75 mill. Maybe just maybe.

What you think JJ?
This also assumes Raanta doesn't pan out.

The argument is and has been whether he's worth $5 million a year on the Hawks. Not whether he's elite.

No one can counter the obvious reasons like: downward salary cap adjustment, likely availability of equal or better replacements, other cap obligations the Hawks will have, what they have slotted for their #1 goalie, etc

Even though now one poster wants to make it about my saying he's not "elite." Which he isn't.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether he will get $5 million a year. Which barring a series of events like Crawford really stepping up this year, Raanta flopping, no other goalies being available is unlikely.
- John Jaeckel

I understand what JJ is saying. I have a few questions though.

If Crawford keeps on the upswing, is he worth 4-5 mill? With a 64 mill cap, probably not. If the cap goes up to 75 mill. Maybe just maybe.

What you think JJ?
This also assumes Raanta doesn't pan out.

I'm happy for you. And thank you for monitoring what I "use" and how frequently. If I need some metrics and someone who is themselves beyond reproach to keep me in line, I know who to ask.



You are entertaining.
- John Jaeckel

Thanks - I try. I know my advice is the last thing you need or want, but what the heck... I think you know a lot about hockey and that you're a pretty good writer. You also provide some pretty good insight into the Hawks' organization (no, you're not always right, but nobody is in the rumors market). When you have the informational and writing-ability advantage there is no need to use the anger/personal attack card in the debate. To me it lessens the quality of your point-of-view, which is strong on its own.

I did respond in kind to your shots at me - and I shouldn't have. I should have just pointed them out to you without returning fire. I will do that in the future.

I do not disagree, on the other hand in CC's situation, many people would celebrate a guy who has literally paid his dues and hung in there, getting booted to the back of the line time and again, to only end up getting a chance and getting the job done.

In the old era of run and gun hockey, goalies were more artists than in todays game. Their individual sparkle was evident. Today's game is about consistency. I believe it was you who made the brilliant comment about the state of goaltending in Canada and the cookie cutter/no improv mantra of the position.

The funny part of all of it is that the Hawks won two cups with 2 unproven goalies, who conventional wisdom suggested they would not be able to win a cup with those guys. I am speaking broadly of the hockey media and inteligencia. One of my favorite sports cliches....the game is not played on paper. And that is why they play the game.
- TrueGrit

The common denominator in the Hawks two cups was none other than your favorite, Coach Q along with a handful of players who play his style. What Quenneville has done is create a defensive environment where an ‘elite’ goalie, a goalie who has to carry the team on his back, isn’t required. I give Crawford a ton of credit for single handedly winning a few big games and I love the fact he had to work his way from the minors and didn’t whine about it. But he still isn’t worth a huge payday for two reasons, I don’t think CC is an elite goalie and Chicago’s philosophy is to use the cap space for position players in front of a good solid goalie.

I understand what JJ is saying. I have a few questions though.

If Crawford keeps on the upswing, is he worth 4-5 mill? With a 64 mill cap, probably not. If the cap goes up to 75 mill. Maybe just maybe.

What you think JJ?
This also assumes Raanta doesn't pan out.
- robhawks

YES!

Thanks - I try. I know my advice is the last thing you need or want, but what the heck... I think you know a lot about hockey and that you're a pretty good writer. You also provide some pretty good insight into the Hawks' organization (no, you're not always right, but nobody is in the rumors market). When you have the informational and writing-ability advantage there is no need to use the anger/personal attack card in the debate. To me it lessens the quality of your point-of-view, which is strong on its own.

I did respond in kind to your shots at me - and I shouldn't have. I should have just pointed them out to you without returning fire. I will do that in the future.
- mohel

Thank you, all good and my apologies for being a Jerkosaurus Rex.

YES!
- John Jaeckel

That's what I think. Cap worth has to relate to overall cap and team cap allocation.

I mean, look at the contracts handed out a few weeks ago. Man oh man.

The common denominator in the Hawks two cups was none other than your favorite, Coach Q along with a handful of players who play his style. What Quenneville has done is create a defensive environment where an ‘elite’ goalie, a goalie who has to carry the team on his back, isn’t required. I give Crawford a ton of credit for single handedly winning a few big games and I love the fact he had to work his way from the minors and didn’t whine about it. But he still isn’t worth a huge payday for two reasons, I don’t think CC is an elite goalie and Chicago’s philosophy is to use the cap space for position players in front of a good solid goalie.
- paulr

Totally agree on the first one - I think CC is good/very good, but not elite. On the second highlighted point - it is a good philosophy if you keep developing the replacement goalie. Hopefully Raanta is that guy, or we'll have to pay someone too much or settle for a less than average goalie.

Thank you, all good and my apologies for being a Jerkosaurus Rex.
- John Jaeckel

Cool, much more important things to do than fight - Kate is in labor (or "labour" to some) for God's sake!!!

Cool, much more important things to do than fight - Kate is in labor (or "labour" to some) for God's sake!!!
- mohel

Ummm you mean labour or 'labor' to some! Remember it is English and not American ... at least not yet.

Ummm you mean labour or 'labor' to some! Remember it is English and not American ... at least not yet.
- paulr

Excellent point on perspective, Paul! Was not intending to say one was better than the other.

Excellent point on perspective, Paul! Was not intending to say one was better than the other.
- mohel

I know I was just being a pest!

I know I was just being a pest!
- paulr

I knew you were. I had an English teacher in HS that used to say all the time "you are writing English, not American." He was a great teacher, and your post reminded me of him.