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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Friday Quick Hits, Reader Poll
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JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jul 19 @ 10:30 AM ET
Do that stats include wood or composite sticks? And are they with or without legal 2-line passes?
- jmatchett383

Good points, but I still think this is a good way to get a timeless stat.
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:32 AM ET
Alright so while I don't want to beat a dead horse, out of curiosity I took my "timeless" baseline (The Red Wings all-time goals for per game average) and adjusted some iconic and modern hockey players to this baseline, to get an idea of how they might do in their primes if they were all on an even playing field. It basically adjusted stats that occur due to circumstance (i.e, Gretzky playing on a team with Coffey, Messier, Anderson, and Kurri obviously caused him to have off the chart stats, while Stamkos played on a non-playoff contender who were one of the worse teams in the league, and he still led the league in goal scoring.)

NOTE: these don't necessarily show who is a better or worse player, i.e with Gretzky, who despite having inflated numbers in some part due to playing on the mid-80s Oilers, is still obviously one of the top 2 to ever play, and still put up amazing numbers on worse teams in lower-scoring times. These were just curious to me and I found it interesting.

In all of their highest-scoring seasons:
Mike Bossy - 48 goals/80 games - 0.6 G/G
Steven Stamkos - 65 goals/82 games - 0.79 G/G
Maurice Richard - 34 goals/50 games - 0.68 G/G
Jean Béliveau - 46 goals/70 games - 0.66 G/G
Gordie Howe - 48 goals/70 games - 0.69 G/G
Bernie Geoffrion - 43 goals/64 games - 0.67 G/G
Wayne Gretzky - 55 goals/80 games - 0.69 G/G
Alex Ovechkin - 67 goals/82 games - 0.82 G/G
Mario Lemiuex - 61 goals/76 games - 0.80 G/G
Steve Yzerman - 52 goals/80 games - 0.65 G/G
Sidney Crosby - 51 goals/81 games - 0.63 G/G

So what I'm getting from this is our more 1 dimensional goal scorers of today (Stamkos, Ovechkin) have goal scoring ability that can compare to great scorers of the past. They just lack the 2nd dimension of playmaking like those great players all had.

- JAKEw1234


I appreciate your effort, but what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 19 @ 10:32 AM ET
And achieving those team goals can certainly assist Laughton's development.
- johndewar



Not as much as playing 10 minutes a game in the NHL would in my opinion.
JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jul 19 @ 10:32 AM ET
Not sure why you posted this in this thread. I'm not going to get involved in carrying this over to this thread. But I'll be glad to continue to discuss this in the other thread.
- MJL

Believe it or not I didnt post this to continue an argument I did it out of personal curiosity mostly, and thought I'd share the results of what I found.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 19 @ 10:34 AM ET
http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/article/ohf-announces-exceptional-player-status-for-connor-mcdavid/119258
- jmatchett383



I think that's great. They're doing what it best for the player, and allowing him to play at a level where the competition level is best for him.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 19 @ 10:34 AM ET
Believe it or not I didnt post this to continue an argument I did it out of personal curiosity mostly, and thought I'd share the results of what I found.
- JAKEw1234



i'm just saying that the other thread is where that conversation is taking place.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Jul 19 @ 10:34 AM ET
Believe it or not I did't post this to continue an argument I did it out of personal curiosity mostly, and thought I'd share the results of what I found.
- JAKEw1234


I did a breakdown a few years ago. It took a team's total goals compared to the league total goals for a season. Within that, we were able to factor in (not straight division) a specific player's contribution. Gretzky was still the best.
Don'tForgetTocchet
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Ground Zero Brooklyn
Joined: 02.08.2007

Jul 19 @ 10:35 AM ET
Why didn't anybody else think of this?
- BulliesPhan87



i have no idea !
Tomahawk
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi.
Joined: 02.04.2009

Jul 19 @ 10:35 AM ET
Good points, but I still think this is a good way to get a timeless stat.
- JAKEw1234



Too many variables... it's virtually impossible to compare numbers between eras.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 19 @ 10:36 AM ET
I think the key word here is he "can" play on the 4th line.

They don't NEED him to burn a year right now to play on the 4th line.

- johndewar



They don't NEED to bring him up next year, or the year after. Don't see the sense in that.
JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jul 19 @ 10:37 AM ET
I did a breakdown a few years ago. It took a team's total goals compared to the league total goals for a season. Within that, we were able to factor in (not straight division) a specific player's contribution. Gretzky was still the best.
- jmatchett383

Well I mean my breakdown there only accounts for goals. Gretzky's playmaking and vision was arguably the meat and potatoes of his game. He was a goal guy, and an assist guy, but he still tended to put up more assists than goals. That's something Stamkos and Ovechkin just don't have.
JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jul 19 @ 10:38 AM ET
Too many variables... it's virtually impossible to compare numbers between eras.
- Tomahawk

Yup you're right, but I can try!
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:38 AM ET
i'm just saying that the other thread is where that conversation is taking place.
- MJL


Let's keep it all on one thread
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Jul 19 @ 10:38 AM ET
Well I mean my breakdown there only accounts for goals. Gretzky's playmaking and vision was arguably the meat and potatoes of his game. He was a goal guy, and an assist guy, but he still tended to put up more assists than goals. That's something Stamkos and Ovechkin just don't have.
- JAKEw1234


I blame Matt Carle for Ovechkin's shortcomings.
griouxmvp2012
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: NJ
Joined: 06.27.2011

Jul 19 @ 10:38 AM ET
Alright so while I don't want to beat a dead horse, out of curiosity I took my "timeless" baseline (The Red Wings all-time goals for per game average) and adjusted some iconic and modern hockey players to this baseline, to get an idea of how they might do in their primes if they were all on an even playing field. It basically adjusted stats that occur due to circumstance (i.e, Gretzky playing on a team with Coffey, Messier, Anderson, and Kurri obviously caused him to have off the chart stats, while Stamkos played on a non-playoff contender who were one of the worse teams in the league, and he still led the league in goal scoring.)

NOTE: these don't necessarily show who is a better or worse player, i.e with Gretzky, who despite having inflated numbers in some part due to playing on the mid-80s Oilers, is still obviously one of the top 2 to ever play, and still put up amazing numbers on worse teams in lower-scoring times. These were just curious to me and I found it interesting.

In all of their highest-scoring seasons:
Mike Bossy - 48 goals/80 games - 0.6 G/G
Steven Stamkos - 65 goals/82 games - 0.79 G/G
Maurice Richard - 34 goals/50 games - 0.68 G/G
Jean Béliveau - 46 goals/70 games - 0.66 G/G
Gordie Howe - 48 goals/70 games - 0.69 G/G
Bernie Geoffrion - 43 goals/64 games - 0.67 G/G
Wayne Gretzky - 55 goals/80 games - 0.69 G/G
Alex Ovechkin - 67 goals/82 games - 0.82 G/G
Mario Lemiuex - 61 goals/76 games - 0.80 G/G
Steve Yzerman - 52 goals/80 games - 0.65 G/G
Sidney Crosby - 51 goals/81 games - 0.63 G/G

So what I'm getting from this is our more 1 dimensional goal scorers of today (Stamkos, Ovechkin) have goal scoring ability that can compare to great scorers of the past. They just lack the 2nd dimension of playmaking like those great players all had.

- JAKEw1234

Gretzky scored 92 in his highest scoring season
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:39 AM ET
I blame Matt Carle for Ovechkin's shortcomings.
- jmatchett383


Thats hard to believe considering they play against each other 6 times a year
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:40 AM ET
Gretzky scored 92 in his highest scoring season
- griouxmvp2012


When you think about, it's really not that much. I mean, I've shot a 92 in golf before
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Jul 19 @ 10:40 AM ET
Thats hard to believe considering they play against each other 6 times a year
- PhillySportsGuy


Oh...it goes much deeper than that.
johndewar
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: South Jersey, NJ
Joined: 01.16.2009

Jul 19 @ 10:41 AM ET
When you think about, it's really not that much. I mean, I've shot a 92 in golf before
- PhillySportsGuy


#humblebrag
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:41 AM ET
Oh...it goes much deeper than that.
- jmatchett383


#6DegreesOfMattCarlesFault
griouxmvp2012
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: NJ
Joined: 06.27.2011

Jul 19 @ 10:41 AM ET
When you think about, it's really not that much. I mean, I've shot a 92 in golf before
- PhillySportsGuy

That's just craziness 212 points wow
PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:42 AM ET
#humblebrag
- johndewar


on a 9 hole course...
PhillaBully
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 07.20.2010

Jul 19 @ 10:42 AM ET
I've read this alot here, with respect to Laughton.

There is a lot that Laughton can still do at the junior hockey level. He can be given a bigger role and get more of a bite offensively. He can actually make the Canadian National team this year and play internationally in World Juniors (he didn't last year). He can go back and try to win a Memorial Cup, etc.

It's not like the kid achieved everything there is to achieve at the junior hockey level and needs a new challenge.

I'm fine with it if he can help the Flyers now and make the team, but don't really understand the rush at all.

- johndewar


In my humble opinion you get better by playing against tougher competition. I would want laughton to go up against the best competion that he could before stepping up to the nhl. Plus the flyers can train him as they see fit. In the CHL the flyers have no control over his development.
johndewar
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: South Jersey, NJ
Joined: 01.16.2009

Jul 19 @ 10:43 AM ET
on a 9 hole course...
- PhillySportsGuy



PhillySportsGuy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ
Joined: 04.08.2012

Jul 19 @ 10:44 AM ET
In my humble opinion you get better by playing against tougher competition. I would want laughton to go up against the best competion that he could before stepping up to the nhl.
- PhillaBully


I agree. I think he's accomplished everything, in terms of growth, that he can in Juniors.
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