who would have thought we'd have a log jam of defensemen

I have zero problem criticizing Holmgren, in fact I probably do so more often than anyone outside of Isiahh.

That being said, when the situation is looked at objectively, imo I feel like the Bryzgalov acquisition has Snider's fingerprints all over it.
- PLindbergh31

I think JoeRusso is the biggest Holmgren critic here.

I don't have an axe to grind with Holmgren. Just don't want to read that he's totally absolved from the Bryz mistake.

i think morin has 1st pairing potential. i see a lot of chris pronger in the way he approaches the game. let's also not forget that he doesn't turn 18 until this friday.
- flyerscup2011

I don't know if he has Pronger's offense. I also hate drafting defenders for the QMJHL, I prefer the WHL breed (they always just seem tougher). But if he turns into a Chara, I'll take it.

I don't know if he has Pronger's offense. I also hate drafting defenders for the QMJHL, I prefer the WHL breed (they always just seem tougher). But if he turns into a Chara, I'll take it.
- jmatchett383

wtf

Vokoun was so good that year that he got a job backing up Fleury the next season.

I think Bryz was a safe move for Homer because if it didn't work out he could always go back to Snider and say "You told me to get the best goalie available. I got a Vezina finalist and it didn't work it."

If he signed Vokoun or stayed with Bob and it didn't work, he would have no excuse.

The really problem is that the Flyers have so much trouble developing goalies in the system. Most teams have at least a few goalies with NHL potential in their minor league system.
- PhillySportsGuy

Bob really improved his game. But I was a doubter at the time.

That last year with the Flyers he had this amazing ability to look so small and crouched over in the net.

He was unbeatable down low, and has the best side to side quickness.
But he seemed so vulnerable to top shelf goals.

I think JoeRusso is the biggest Holmgren critic here.

I don't have an axe to grind with Holmgren. Just don't want to read that he's totally absolved from the Bryz mistake.
- phillydentist

I just wish Snider didn't overreact after the playoffs. I also think Lavi handled that situation terribly. Calling up Leighton after never playing!!

i think morin has 1st pairing potential. i see a lot of chris pronger in the way he approaches the game. let's also not forget that he doesn't turn 18 until this friday.
- flyerscup2011

1st pairing potential. It will take him about 3-4 year before he is ready to crack the NHL, and another 3-4 year to develop his game into a top line defenseman. So if you think Morin is the Future fix to the top pairing, be prepared for it to take 8 years before that happens. So basically when Girouxs contract runs out...

To me its pretty obvious the guys that we have are not going to be top pairing guys for us anytime soon. They can come in and be support player on thier way to the top, but if we plan on winning anytime soon we need to make moves. I would suggest moving Couturier for someone that is only 1-2 years away from taking that step into a number 1 position. Or making a play for AP, even if it costs you Couturier, Read, and 2 first round picks.

IMO Howard is the most forgivable but the worst. He gave this franchise a lot before getting the contract.
- PhillySportsGuy

Agree, he was tremendous before the extension but he had 2 years left on his deal. There was just no reason to go so big so early with that extension.

Bob really improved his game. But I was a doubter at the time.

That last year with the Flyers he had this amazing ability to look so small and crouched over in the net.

He was unbeatable down low, and has the best side to side quickness.
But he seemed so vulnerable to top shelf goals.
- Marc D

I know. I think Snider was embarrassed by that whole debacle in the playoffs and Homer didn't want his job depending on Bob's ability to come back from a difficult finish to the season.

After they traded him, people said that Lavi talked to Columbus and told them they were lucky to be getting a player like Bob. IMO, I believe the Flyers organization was still high on Bob but realized they needed to trade him.

Bob really improved his game. But I was a doubter at the time.

That last year with the Flyers he had this amazing ability to look so small and crouched over in the net.

He was unbeatable down low, and has the best side to side quickness.
But he seemed so vulnerable to top shelf goals.
- Marc D

Bob looked good the first 48 games of so of his rookie season. He looked like a Calder finalist.

Agree, he was tremendous before the extension but he had 2 years left on his deal. There was just no reason to go so big so early with that extension.
- phillydentist

I know. In baseball, I don't think extensions should ever be signed that far in advance. His contract kicked in the year after he tore his achilles. On the open market, he would have gotten maybe 3yrs $54M

I just wish Snider didn't overreact after the playoffs. I also think Lavi handled that situation terribly. Calling up Leighton after never playing!!
- PhillySportsGuy

Definitely, a whole organizational breakdown led to Bryzgalov. Lav mishandling Bob to trigger it all.

I know. I think Snider was embarrassed by that whole debacle in the playoffs and Homer didn't want his job depending on Bob's ability to come back from a difficult finish to the season.

After they traded him, people said that Lavi talked to Columbus and told them they were lucky to be getting a player like Bob. IMO, I believe the Flyers organization was still high on Bob but realized they needed to trade him.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yup
water under the bridge

I can't wait to see how the goalies do this year.
Just love how Mason can move the puck, I think he is going to help the D start the transition a lot faster this season.
Such a valuable skill, (frank)in Brodeur has killed the Flyers with this over the years.

I think JoeRusso is the biggest Holmgren critic here.

I don't have an axe to grind with Holmgren. Just don't want to read that he's totally absolved from the Bryz mistake.
- phillydentist

Joe is a knowledgeable, good fan. He's frustrated at the current Flyers course of direction. Not for me, or anyone else to tell him how to feel. His opinion just as valid as anyone's.

Definitely, a whole organizational breakdown led to Bryzgalov. Lav mishandling Bob to trigger it all.
- phillydentist

The most ironic thing about the whole situation is that the Flyers made the move for Bryz because they were in a win now mode. They had a veteran team.

Then they proceeded to get very young. If they were going that young, they should have just kept Bob and see how he developed!

Yup
water under the bridge

I can't wait to see how the goalies do this year.
Just love how Mason can move the puck, I think he is going to help the D start the transition a lot faster this season.
Such a valuable skill, (frank)in Brodeur has killed the Flyers with this over the years.
- Marc D

I know. Brodeur works so well with the trap. Teams can't skate through the zone so they dump it in. Out comes brodeur to play it away from them.

I need to stop. I'm having bad flashbacks.

Bob really improved his game. But I was a doubter at the time.

That last year with the Flyers he had this amazing ability to look so small and crouched over in the net.

He was unbeatable down low, and has the best side to side quickness.
But he seemed so vulnerable to top shelf goals.
- Marc D

I think Bob comes back down to earth a little this season. I think he will be decent but nothing like a top 5 goalie again.

wtf
- 2Real

In regard to what, specifically?

Vokoun was so good that year that he got a job backing up Fleury the next season.

I think Bryz was a safe move for Homer because if it didn't work out he could always go back to Snider and say "You told me to get the best goalie available. I got a Vezina finalist and it didn't work it."

If he signed Vokoun or stayed with Bob and it didn't work, he would have no excuse.

The really problem is that the Flyers have so much trouble developing goalies in the system. Most teams have at least a few goalies with NHL potential in their minor league system.
- PhillySportsGuy

The year we traded for Bryz it was him and Vokoun who were the biggest free agents that year. I had a feeling the Flyers were going to sign Vokoun on the cheap like the year they signed Vanbiesbrouk (spelling??) instead of the more expensive Cujo. They didn't and got bit in the but. The goalie position is such a crap shoot. If the Flyers would have signed Cujo I think we would have had a cup during that contract.

Joe is a knowledgeable, good fan. He's frustrated at the current Flyers course of direction. Not for me, or anyone else to tell him how to feel. His opinion just as valid as anyone's.
- PLindbergh31

I agree, I always respected what Joe had to say. I can't say I agree with the stuff he has been spouting recently, but for people to get on him for it is just stupid. Everyone comes on here and female doges and moans about something, whether its a player (Carle, Bryz, Carter), A coach, or the GM. That is what this forum is for. But some people think when the Flyers make right decision in thier opinion, no-one has the right to question it. I said I didn't like the Laughton or the Morin picks. I got blasted for both. I have also said I didn't like Hartnell 2 years ago. Some jerks still bring that up. Just have to realize that some people are trolls and internet bullies, but behind the keyboard is a pimply, over-weight, dork with nothing better to do then remember what people say and keep bringing it up.

I guess what I am saying. Joe, your welcome to your opinion here, and I will debate you on it, but I wont think less of you if your frustrated and spouting out the frustrations.

Hell, if everyone agrees on what the Flyers did, we would talk politics or music or wrestling or something.

IMO I think the Defensive prospects are what they are, future verisons of Coburn-Meszaros-Grossmann. They will be 3-6 guys. Not that bad, every team needs these types of players. It sucks they used an 11th overall pick on one, but hey, whatever. What it does mean however is that in a few years we will be able to lower the cost of the defense. Istead of paying 4-6 d-man between 3.5-4 million, we will be able to pay them between 1-2 million for the same product. Much like how the Rangers were able to do for so long. That should allow us to trade for or sign the number 1 guy that we need. I still have no faith the Flyers can pick a franchise defenseman in the draft.
- youarewrong

So you've already determined that Morin's ceiling as a player is at best a #3 defenseman, similar to the players you mentioned? So how can you explain that the Flyers Scouting Department. Which is comprised of professional talent evaluators that work for an NHL team. That have extensively scouted the player, and watched him play actual games. Came to a different conclusion then you have? Because they obviously see more in him then you think he's going to be. Or they wouldn't have taken him with the 11th overall pick. How often have you seen Morin play? How many games?

The year we traded for Bryz it was him and Vokoun who were the biggest free agents that year. I had a feeling the Flyers were going to sign Vokoun on the cheap like the year they signed Vanbiesbrouk (spelling??) instead of the more expensive Cujo. They didn't and got bit in the but. The goalie position is such a crap shoot. If the Flyers would have signed Cujo I think we would have had a cup during that contract.
- Stinkfitz

Dosent CUJO hold the record for most loses in NHL history? He is the best worst goalie of all time.

Dosent CUJO hold the record for most loses in NHL history? He is the best worst goalie of all time.
- youarewrong

Cujo was a good goalie.

So you've already determined that Morin's ceiling as a player is at best a #3 defenseman, similar to the players you mentioned? So how can you explain that the Flyers Scouting Department. Which is comprised of professional talent evaluators that work for an NHL team. That have extensively scouted the player, and watched him play actual games. Came to a different conclusion then you have? Because they obviously see more in him then you think he's going to be. Or they wouldn't have taken him with the 11th overall pick. How often have you seen Morin play? How many games?
- MJL

I'm taking my opinion on what I have read from other scouts, and Bill. I think he has upside to be a 1-2 defenseman, but he is most likely 6-8 years away from reaching that level. In the meantime he will be a 3-4 d-man. Bill says his upside is like a more mobil Schenn, but he is 3-4 years away from playing in the NHL. Then you have to give him 3-4 years to become a top NHL player. Not every player can just come up like OEL or Doughty and be a top defenseman after a year or 2.

So you've already determined that Morin's ceiling as a player is at best a #3 defenseman, similar to the players you mentioned? So how can you explain that the Flyers Scouting Department. Which is comprised of professional talent evaluators that work for an NHL team. That have extensively scouted the player, and watched him play actual games. Came to a different conclusion then you have? Because they obviously see more in him then you think he's going to be. Or they wouldn't have taken him with the 11th overall pick. How often have you seen Morin play? How many games?
- MJL

Probably the same 3 minute youtube video I found on him. The problem is everyone is placing these pairing numbers on kids who have not developed yet.