Only on our forum do I see these weird words and it makes for rib breaking laughter
- TML4Life85

Besides douchenozzle, I made the rest up.

Personal favourite is Old Man's Popcorn.

I'm gonna have to start using some of those!

coolest guy on the hockey forum.

can i grab an autograph on the way out?

i'll have my people get to your people.
- joel878

all seriousness though... that part there about you thinking 30G is 2nd line production and 19G is 3rd line completely explains our disagreement here.

The last 20 years or so that simply is not the case.

And here is something else we are likely to disagree over... $5M in my opinion is not 1st line money. It is 2nd line money. And Clarkson would play on the Leafs 2nd line.

In the NHL, it simply is not possible to sign a UFA under 30 yrs old who averages 20+ goals a year for less than $5M.

All it costs to acquire Clarkson is cap. To acquire whatever player you would rather the Leafs spend that cap space on would cost assets the Leafs simply can not afford to give up, as well as the cap space.

just backread a bit

i dont envy you guys regarding this Clarkson situation.
really is a tough player to get a read on.
but like it or not, if you want to acquire him, its going to cost more than you would probably like to pay.

but that really goes for any UFA these days..
- Crimsoninja

that's been the point i've been trying to get home on it.

he's probably worth 3.5 to 4. free agency will get him paid at least 5-6. the term is the worst part. i'd have no problem paying clarkson on the high end if it was low risk in term, but it's free agency. a team will win him over with money and term.

players who get big deals in free agency from sketchy, debateable at best career numbers, historically turn out very bad. an overwhelming majority of them. it's poor management to take a player in that scenario to the bank.

especially considering if you take his numbers away, there's not much you can get from him that you can't get from your bottom tier crash bang guys not afraid to flip the mitts.

just backread a bit

i dont envy you guys regarding this Clarkson situation.
really is a tough player to get a read on.
but like it or not, if you want to acquire him, its going to cost more than you would probably like to pay.

but that really goes for any UFA these days..
- Crimsoninja

this.

But Leafs need him... or a player like him. Badly

this.

But Leafs need him... or a player like him. Badly
- Big_Lightnin

5.25 for 4 years and call it a day.
More than I'd like but hey, what can you do?

that's been the point i've been trying to get home on it.

he's probably worth 3.5 to 4. free agency will get him paid at least 5-6. the term is the worst part. i'd have no problem paying clarkson on the high end if it was low risk in term, but it's free agency. a team will win him over with money and term.

players who get big deals in free agency from sketchy, debateable at best career numbers, historically turn out very bad. an overwhelming majority of them. it's poor management to take a player in that scenario to the bank.

especially considering if you take his numbers away, there's not much you can get from him that you can't get from your bottom tier crash bang guys not afraid to flip the mitts.
- joel878

even if we take your 15G average... no you cant. You can not get 15-20G from bottom tier crash bang guys.

all seriousness though... that part there about you thinking 30G is 2nd line production and 19G is 3rd line completely explains our disagreement here.

The last 20 years or so that simply is not the case.

And here is something else we are likely to disagree over... $5M in my opinion is not 1st line money. It is 2nd line money. And Clarkson would play on the Leafs 2nd line.

In the NHL, it simply is not possible to sign a UFA under 30 yrs old who averages 20+ goals a year for less than $5M.

All it costs to acquire Clarkson is cap. To acquire whatever player you would rather the Leafs spend that cap space on would cost assets the Leafs simply can not afford to give up, as well as the cap space.
- Big_Lightnin

and that wasn't my point, but it got tough to explain. i wasn't saying you need to score 30 goals a season to play on the second line like douchebag was trying to promote. i was more or less arguing potential, and reliability in numbers being 2nd line players. tough to explain, not even getting into it.

macarthur scored 20's a couple times. does that make him a 2nd line player in my eyes? no. stahlberg? no. i have respect for the idea that that's my opinion, and doesn't constitute fact.

with regards to 5 mil being second line money, both of our legitimate first line players make in the 5.5 range. i'll go on record as saying clarkson is paid more money than either by the time he signs. is clarkson worth more than lupul?

the money constitutes at best being a 2nd line player, and 2nd line requires production. spending that money on someone who's averaged 15 goals a season over his career isn't good enough.

it's not just cap. it's been proven many times in the cap era that bad contracts are an issue, especially with both compliance buyouts burned up. if it doesn't pan out, he won't be able to be traded. you have the option of burying him with the majority of his salary counting against the cap, or buying him out with 4-5 mil a season counting against the cap for 8 years.

there is no such thing as just cap in a cap area. teams have to be safegaurded, could be the difference between winning a championship or not.

even if we take your 15G average... no you cant. You can not get 15-20G from bottom tier crash bang guys.
- Big_Lightnin

so you're saying matt cooke is a 2nd liner?

and that wasn't my point, but it got tough to explain. i wasn't saying you need to score 30 goals a season to play on the second line like douchebag was trying to promote. i was more or less arguing potential, and reliability in numbers being 2nd line players. tough to explain, not even getting into it.

macarthur scored 20's a couple times. does that make him a 2nd line player in my eyes? no. stahlberg? no. i have respect for the idea that that's my opinion, and doesn't constitute fact.

with regards to 5 mil being second line money, both of our legitimate first line players make in the 5.5 range. i'll go on record as saying clarkson is paid more money than either by the time he signs. is clarkson worth more than lupul?

the money constitutes at best being a 2nd line player, and 2nd line requires production. spending that money on someone who's averaged 15 goals a season over his career isn't good enough.

it's not just cap. it's been proven many times in the cap era that bad contracts are an issue, especially with both compliance buyouts burned up. if it doesn't pan out, he won't be able to be traded. you have the option of burying him with the majority of his salary counting against the cap, or buying him out with 4-5 mil a season counting against the cap for 8 years.

there is no such thing as just cap in a cap area. teams have to be safegaurded, could be the difference between winning a championship or not.
- joel878

so could having Clarkson... is my point.
You cant win without guys like him.

(frank) me its 2am. Damn you for not loving Clarkson

5.25 for 4 years and call it a day.
More than I'd like but hey, what can you do?
- UsernameUnknown

This would be my absolute upper limit for him.

Any higher, and it's a bad day in Leaf Land.

so could having Clarkson... is my point.
You cant win without guys like him.

(frank) me its 2am. Damn you for not loving Clarkson
- Big_Lightnin

i could live with him, but there's no reality i could validate the money. not even close.

take away 10-15 goals from his only real 2nd lineyear, and you have nothing that you can't find in a 2.5ish crash bang guy, who seem to be alot easier to grab.

west coast advantage..

so you're saying matt cooke is a 2nd liner?
- joel878

Matt Cook doesn't score 15-20G consistently. 14 yrs in the league hes only scored at least 15 three times, and more than 15 only once... last year.

i could live with him, but there's no reality i could validate the money. not even close.

take away 10-15 goals from his only real 2nd lineyear, and you have nothing that you can't find in a 2.5ish crash bang guy, who seem to be alot easier to grab.

west coast advantage..
- joel878

except the potential to score those extra 10-15 goals



Im out. tomorrows gonna be fun.

brought this up in the sabres blog on here, according to them it never happened and they get pissy when u try to discuss it
- Jurco_28

So I guess we were all dreaming when they signed him

5.25 for 4 years and call it a day.
More than I'd like but hey, what can you do?
- UsernameUnknown

I would not sign him if I were Nonis. I'd rather promote someone from Marlies and go with the team we have.

Matt Cook doesn't score 15-20G consistently. 14 yrs in the league hes only scored at least 15 three times, and more than 15 only once... last year.
- Big_Lightnin

ironic. david clarkson has only scored at least 15 three times to.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying clarkson is cooke. there's obviously more potential there. but i think it puts into perspective how foolish paying clarkson 5 million + on a long term deal is if he can't live up to his 25-30 goal side.

gonna look pretty foolish paying him that much money if we end up with 12 goal david clarkson. could literally be one of the worst contracts in the league.

except the potential to score those extra 10-15 goals



Im out. tomorrows gonna be fun.
- Big_Lightnin

potential from a 29 year old guy just hitting those totals for the first time in his career, isn't great potential. usually ends up being referred to as a peak.

... cheers.

except the potential to score those extra 10-15 goals



Im out. tomorrows gonna be fun.
- Big_Lightnin

Night bud. I hope we don't sign any of the UFA except Scuderi and call it a day. (frank) Bozak too!

ironic. david clarkson has only scored at least 15 three times to.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying clarkson is cooke. there's obviously more potential there. but i think it puts into perspective how foolish paying clarkson 5 million + on a long term deal is if he can't live up to his 25-30 goal side.

gonna look pretty foolish paying him that much money if we end up with 12 goal david clarkson. could literally be one of the worst contracts in the league.
- joel878

You always take chances and learn. You can't just give up because he might not score 20-30 goals and break play tough. I just hope they don't sign him period if he asks fro more than 4 million for 3 years max.

You always take chances and learn. You can't just give up because he might not score 20-30 goals and break play tough. I just hope they don't sign him period if he asks fro more than 4 million for 3 years max.
- TML4Life85

for sure you take chances. fact: a large majority of teams that take those chances during the initial panic of unrestricted free agency get bit. an overwhelming majority.

that's the kind of contract i'm hoping for, but i think hoping he doesn't sign here at all is more realistic.

The Force is strong in Mactavish.

for sure you take chances. fact: a large majority of teams that take those chances during the initial panic of unrestricted free agency get bit. an overwhelming majority.

that's the kind of contract i'm hoping for, but i think hoping he doesn't sign here at all is more realistic.
- joel878

Let's hope he doesn't sign here at all.

(frank) bozak. Trade for stastny. Sign Clarkson to reasonable deal. Sign ference. The end.

(frank) bozak. Trade for stastny. Sign Clarkson to reasonable deal. Sign ference. The end.
- Mapleleafs_91

Just read the last 3 pages and was going to say this exact same thing when i reached then end, but it was already here.

I don't think Ferrence is a good idea at all.