You're on some other level tonight. I dont think you know up from down, knee from elbow. Sleep it off.
- systemtool

it's okay.

i'm more than willing to accept it when it happens, enjoy it for the year maybe 2 it might be a positive mood, and be right here to remind everyone about this conversation when they're all blowing a gasket about how much of a burden the contract is.

if it's inevitable, i just hope he wants to play for toronto bad enough that he leaves money on the table. it's free agency, and there are teams with interest. if 6.5 long term is rumoured, and a bidding war ensues, and he's looking for his big payday.. he'll get it.

would much rather eventually point out what a horrible signing it was for another team.

Horton seems to want to go to a smaller market, plus his concussions/injuries worry me. He also seems like he would be the most expensive.

Clowe to me is too risky. Brutal year, and how much of his success was because of big joe, Patty M and Couture?
- systemtool

horton wants to go to a losing team, back to his florida days

Horton fits that mold.

I'm actually a little surprised that people are so high on Clarkson with Horton out there. Hell, even Clowe (who will come cheapest of all).
- Leeman4Gilmour

horton fits it better.

his injury history is an issue.

so is his reported desire to stay away from big markets.

it's okay.

i'm more than willing to accept it when it happens, enjoy it for the year maybe 2 it might be a positive mood, and be right here to remind everyone about this conversation when they're all blowing a gasket about how much of a burden the contract is.

if it's inevitable, i just hope he wants to play for toronto bad enough that he leaves money on the table. it's free agency, and there are teams with interest. if 6.5 long term is rumoured, and a bidding war ensues, and he's looking for his big payday.. he'll get it.

would much rather eventually point out what a horrible signing it was for another team.
- joel878

Id rather wait to poop on a bad deal when it happens then poop on everything, including myself, over something that hasn't happened yet.

I just gave you the evidence... again.

and even if you want to go straight by every goal he's scored in every game he's played...

97 goals in 426 NHL games - that's an average of 19G per season. And he only scored 9G his rookie year in a full season, which generally you can throw out of the averages since he obviously improved since then.

19G pace per season over a career is NOT 3rd line production, no matter how many times you want to say it.
- Big_Lightnin

19 goal production is not second line production, no matter how you want to spin it. it's not. teams that win championships have players with a 19 goal ceiling on their third line.

19 goals on the second line might be acceptable second line production in florida. we know it was here when the leafs were missing the playoffs yearly.

horton wants to go to a losing team, back to his florida days
- Jurco_28

Pretty much

19 goal production is not second line production, no matter how you want to spin it. it's not. teams that win championships have players with a 19 goal ceiling on their third line.

19 goals on the second line might be acceptable second line production in florida. we know it was here when the leafs were missing the playoffs yearly.
- joel878

19 goals is 2nd line production. Dude, go to sleep.

The LA Kings won a cup and had only 3 players with 20 goals or more. None with 30. Just give up. Sleep it off.

you're bending stats to prove a point.

23 is not 25.

i already gave you the 30 goal season.

when you spend the last 2/3 of the season scoring 5 goals, odds are if it's a full season, you don't even hit 20.

you guys are entitled to your opinion.

my side of the fence is that there are few moves who have been historically worse than signing guys with average career 3rd line production, and paying them like their first liners. throwing some sandpaper on it doesn't change that. it's dependable. those contracts end bad near 100% of the time.

that may be the one part of this discussion that isn't speculation.
- joel878

what about a guy who only scores 4 in the first 22 Games? Doesn't seem like goal scorer numbers does it. or going 10 games without scoring a single goal to start the season... and then 9 games without a goal at the halfway point? Scary stuff.

Any guesses who that was? and still hit 20 goals this year?

Id rather wait to poop on a bad deal when it happens then poop on everything, including myself, over something that hasn't happened yet.
- systemtool

i'd rather a potential bad deal not take place in the first place. hey, to each his own.. but i'm more than entitled to have my reservations.

not hopping on the hype train when history doesn't even come close to validating it isn't for everyone.

horton fits it better.

his injury history is an issue.

so is his reported desire to stay away from big markets.
- joel878

I predict that Clowe will be the steal of the 2013 free agency period.

There was a time when we would have moved the sun, moon, and stars for him. Remember when the rumored offer was Clowe and a 1st for Kaberle?

I guess Clowe is also a cautionary tale for what happens when a power forward's body breaks down (right around age 30). Clarkson knows this, and that's why he wants 5 years.

He's one injury away from being 50% of a player because his physicality is such a huge part of his game.

Anyone hear from Big D since the news about Grabo? He okay?

what about a guy who only scores 4 in the first 22 Games? Doesn't seem like goal scorer numbers does it. or going 10 games without scoring a single goal to start the season... and then 9 games without a goal at the halfway point? Scary stuff.

Any guesses who that was? and still hit 20 goals this year?
- Big_Lightnin

it's kessel.

and what are you even talking about.

we're comparing kessels streakiness to clarkson?

ahem. there's a very plain and simple difference here. one is a goal scorer. the other is a gritty hard working 3rd liner with a career 20 goal ceiling.

I predict that Clowe will be the steal of the 2013 free agency period.

There was a time when we would have moved the sun, moon, and stars for him. Remember when the rumored offer was Clowe and a 1st for Kaberle?

I guess Clowe is also a cautionary tale for what happens when a power forward's body breaks down (right around age 30). Clarkson knows this, and that's why he wants 5 years.

He's one injury away from being 50% of a player because his physicality is such a huge part of his game.
- Leeman4Gilmour

exactly. that's bang on. can't wait to see who's stuck paying him another 5 years at 6 million when it happens to.

love the clowe idea, but he may not come super cheap either. the big part may be that clowe doesn't get term.. and that's a game changer.

exactly. that's bang on. can't wait to see who's stuck paying him another 5 years at 6 million when it happens to.

love the clowe idea, but he may not come super cheap either. the big part may be that clowe doesn't get term.. and that's a game changer.
- joel878

Clarkson wont go that cheap.

Someone will give him 15 years at 27 million per.

19 goals is 2nd line production. Dude, go to sleep.

The LA Kings won a cup and had only 3 players with 20 goals or more. None with 30. Just give up. Sleep it off.
- systemtool

yeah? same with pittsburgh, chicago, and boston to i bet. having one example and ignoring the rest is allright.

this just in. an opinion doesn't have to be the same as yours to be acceptable.

Grabo could score some points. He was poor defensively. He could not win enough faceoffs. He's often getting hit and knocked down, instead of hitting people and knocking them down. He had it coming, after holding the Leafs feet to the fire, during his last contract session. No hometown discount, to help the Leafs get better, through cap management. Glad that he's out of here. Lets get some hometown guys, with pride in playing for their home team. Clarkson and Weiss fit that bill.
- PrinceLH

Grabo played with more Leaf pride than most of this teammates in his time with the team. You can see it in how he played and his reaction to being let go. He played hard every night and did whatever was asked of him, no complaining.

Grabo will sign with a division rival and become a Leafs killer... BOOK IT!

Clarkson wont go that cheap.

Someone will give him 15 years at 27 million per.
- systemtool

you think a guy rumoured to command that much money, rumoured to have interest from a pile of teams, is going to be signing for 2-2.5 million a year less then that?

allright ya sarcastic bastard..

i guess we'll be talking after he signs.

19 goal production is not second line production, no matter how you want to spin it. it's not. teams that win championships have players with a 19 goal ceiling on their third line.

19 goals on the second line might be acceptable second line production in florida. we know it was here when the leafs were missing the playoffs yearly.
- joel878

dude... only 101 forwards scored 20 G or more in 2011-2012.
theoretically 90 of those 101 are "1st liners" (3 per team, 30 teams...)

so... the next 90 players would qualify as "2nd liners" (on average... )

Grabo will sign with a division rival and become a Leafs killer... BOOK IT!
- As_I_See_It

Ottawa or Barfalo or Detroit

yeah? same with pittsburgh, chicago, and boston to i bet. having one example and ignoring the rest is allright.

this just in. an opinion doesn't have to be the same as yours to be acceptable.
- joel878

Not one example. Do your research. The year before, Boston had only 4 players with 20 or more goals. 4 isn't a top 6. LA, as pointed out, had only 3. That isn't top 6. The Pens also didnt have 6 players with 20 or more goals. Only 4. Chicago was the only of the 4 teams mentioned that had 6. Which proves the exception and not the rule.

This is in awhile ago. 19 goal scorers are 2nd liners, its not opinion, its pretty much common knowledge. You dont have to accept it, just dont be a douche and deny it.

dude... only 101 forwards scored 20 G or more in 2011-2012.
theoretically 90 of those 101 are "1st liners" (3 per team, 30 teams...)

so... the next 90 players would qualify as "2nd liners" (on average... )
- Big_Lightnin

i guess that makes clarke macarthur your every day 2nd liner in the nhl right? stahlberg? come on..

I predict that Clowe will be the steal of the 2013 free agency period.

There was a time when we would have moved the sun, moon, and stars for him. Remember when the rumored offer was Clowe and a 1st for Kaberle?

I guess Clowe is also a cautionary tale for what happens when a power forward's body breaks down (right around age 30). Clarkson knows this, and that's why he wants 5 years.

He's one injury away from being 50% of a player because his physicality is such a huge part of his game.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Evening gents.

I always find it interesting when people refer to Clarkson as being a "big" forward... At 6'1, 200 he's essentially the same size as Kessel. He plays bigger by a LONG way, but its not like were talking big Burt in his prime, or even Kulemin...

yeah? same with pittsburgh, chicago, and boston to i bet. having one example and ignoring the rest is allright.

this just in. an opinion doesn't have to be the same as yours to be acceptable.
- joel878

fine...

but your opinion seems to be that MOST teams, and ALL good teams have no fewer than 6 players scoring 20G or more.

Right? since 19G average is not 2nd line production...

i guess that makes clarke macarthur your every day 2nd liner in the nhl right? stahlberg? come on..
- joel878

Wow, really?