If there were no adjustments made, but Vokoun played better (and didn't let in 3 horrendous goals), it stands to reason that MAF is not the better goalie on the team. That's not scapegoating, that's just how it is.
- jmatchett383

Im not saying that MAF is the worlds greatest goalie, I am saying that he is a better goalie than Vokoun. The defense insulated Vokoun way better than they did MAF in that Isles series.

Any tender in the world could have won the Ottawa series.

Vokoun was fantastic against the Bruins, he proved that he was the guy that deserved to be in net this post season in the Boston Series. Minus game 2 when the entire team quit on him.

thats a very good point... I'd argue that the players played differently in front of Vokoun than in front of Fluery. Thats not just from observation, but from quotes by the players themselves heard over the season and playoffs.
- ChrisMS

Take the quotes with a grain of salt. Those were comments protecting an extremely well liked teammate.

Their body language told the true story, they felt/looked defeated.

Im not saying that MAF is the worlds greatest goalie, I am saying that he is a better goalie than Vokoun. The defense insulated Vokoun way better than they did MAF in that Isles series.

Any tender in the world could have won the Ottawa series.

Vokoun was fantastic against the Bruins, he proved that he was the guy that deserved to be in net this post season in the Boston Series. Minus game 2 when the entire team quit on him.
- nbartley9

I'm confused... Fleury is the better goalie, but Vokoun plays better?

Take the quotes with a grain of salt. Those were comments protecting an extremely well liked teammate.

Their body language told the true story, they felt/looked defeated.
- Ryan_Wilson

That's very true, the looks to the rafters and the dropped shoulders told the tale with no words needed.

im typically not one for graphs and an over reliance on statistics, but holy hell that first one is as damning as they come.

i always preach that stats never told the story with fleury, and that even if he gave up 3 goals, he would make the saves needed to win, and both the team and himsmelf had confidence in that fact. the capitals series on the cup year is a perfect example. i dont recall him having the greatest actual numbers, but the momentum created by stoning OV on that early breakaway in the deciding game is something that transcends the scoresheet.

now, he doesnt have that confidence, and in turn the team doesnt have that confidence in him.

I'm confused... Fleury is the better goalie, but Vokoun plays better?
- rival22

i will agree that fleury is the more talented goalie at this stage in their careers, but that means little right now.

Take the quotes with a grain of salt. Those were comments protecting an extremely well liked teammate.

Their body language told the true story, they felt/looked defeated.
- Ryan_Wilson

You could interpret it that way. I saw players looking like they let their goalie down, not vice versa. I thought the body language was congruent with their statements.

I'm confused... Fleury is the better goalie, but Vokoun plays better?
- rival22

This season in the playoffs yes Vokoun played better. He also had WAY better support.

If im starting a team and have to pick a goalie I pick MAF over Vokoun every time.

It just depends on who the team decides to play better in front of.

Its not a coincidence that Fleury's numbers have fallen every year since Bylsma took over.

A no defense system is just not going to work for any goalie.
- nbartley9

Come on....Fleury let in horrible goals in the Islanders series. It had very little to do with our D. I think he let in TWO goals from behind the net, a couple easy slap shots and one was just ridiculous when he tried to cover one post and let the puck in in the middle of the goal. Amazing stuff!

He "needs a reality check" and get his head examined.

Im not saying that MAF is the worlds greatest goalie, I am saying that he is a better goalie than Vokoun. The defense insulated Vokoun way better than they did MAF in that Isles series.

Any tender in the world could have won the Ottawa series.

Vokoun was fantastic against the Bruins, he proved that he was the guy that deserved to be in net this post season in the Boston Series. Minus game 2 when the entire team quit on him.
- nbartley9

If "not a single adjustment was made to combat what the Isles did to us in that series" then how did the defense insulate him? If they didn't make any adjustments, it stands to reason they played the same way in front of both.

Here's my issue with Fleury: He had 2 great runs in 08/09. I mean really, REALLY good runs. Since then, his numbers have pretty much crumbled. Every year, every series, every backbreaking goal, every loss, I hear the same refrain: "Well, it's not HIS fault, the defense was bad." At what point is it his fault? What would he have to do to have people say, "Wow, he's mentally cooked?"

Allow a trickler from the circle to to beat him? Did it
Allow a rookie to score on a wrister from just inside the blue line? Did it
Kick a puck into his own net after a corner dump for a GWG? Did it
Somehow be at the side of his net looking at the corner and deflect the puck into his net? Did it

These are not defensive issues. These are horrible goals, and most of them (besides the trickler at the end of Game 4) were backbreaking goals (esp. the Gustafsson goal from 11/12 in Game 6). These are all signs of a goalie who breaks once there's a crack. I just don't see how the Penguins can go into a 5th straight playoff not knowing if their goaltender's there or not mentally.

Come on....Fleury let in horrible goals in the Islanders series. It had very little to do with our D. I think he let in TWO goals from behind the net, a couple easy slap shots and one was just ridiculous when he tried to cover one post and let the puck in in the middle of the goal. Amazing stuff!

He "needs a reality check" and get his head examined.
- Orpik44

I am not saying that Fleury played great in the playoffs, because he was not good at all, but you cant possibly say that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun.

You could interpret it that way. I saw players looking like they let their goalie down, not vice versa. I thought the body language was congruent with their statements.
- ChrisMS

You can't be serious. When they looked to the skies after the 5th goal Fleury let in from behind the goal line you thought they were upset with themselves?

I watched hartzell play in the frozen four tourney and championship game.. while they got crushed it was for lack of defense, he made some great saves and his rebound control was imo a lot better then some nhl goalies...

I hope he resigns with us and gets a shot in wb/s or even as vokuns backup..

I think flower is gone for the right price..

I am not saying that Fleury played great in the playoffs, because he was not good at all, but you cant possibly say that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun.
- nbartley9

It sounds like the team is losing faith in Fleury. Why would they not play the same in front of both goalies?

If "not a single adjustment was made to combat what the Isles did to us in that series" then how did the defense insulate him? If they didn't make any adjustments, it stands to reason they played the same way in front of both.

Here's my issue with Fleury: He had 2 great runs in 08/09. I mean really, REALLY good runs. Since then, his numbers have pretty much crumbled. Every year, every series, every backbreaking goal, every loss, I hear the same refrain: "Well, it's not HIS fault, the defense was bad." At what point is it his fault? What would he have to do to have people say, "Wow, he's mentally cooked?"

Allow a trickler from the circle to to beat him? Did it
Allow a rookie to score on a wrister from just inside the blue line? Did it
Kick a puck into his own net after a corner dump for a GWG? Did it
Somehow be at the side of his net looking at the corner and deflect the puck into his net? Did it

These are not defensive issues. These are horrible goals, and most of them (besides the trickler at the end of Game 4) were backbreaking goals (esp. the Gustafsson goal from 11/12 in Game 6). These are all signs of a goalie who breaks once there's a crack. I just don't see how the Penguins can go into a 5th straight playoff not knowing if their goaltender's there or not mentally.
- jmatchett383

Adjustments in game plan were not made plain and simple, they should have been trapping the holy hell out of that team and they weren't.

Players did however make adjustments because they knew their back-up goalie was starting in net.

Im not defending MAF's play in the playoffs it wasn't good.

Lets just trade for Hank and be done with it haha.

You could interpret it that way. I saw players looking like they let their goalie down, not vice versa. I thought the body language was congruent with their statements.
- ChrisMS

They let their goalie down by allowing shots from behind the goal line?

I am not saying that Fleury played great in the playoffs, because he was not good at all, but you cant possibly say that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun.
- nbartley9

But what contradicts that line of thinking, are the bad goals that he let in. Getting hung out to dry on a two on one or, a team not clearing rebounds out is one thing, but several of the goals that he let in during the playoffs were just horrible goals... some on shots that weren't even going in.

His problems are all between his ears... it's not a team who isn't playing great in front of him, it's not Dan Bylsma's fault, it's when faced with the slightest adversity in a pressure game, he goes to the zoo.

Fleury comes off as a nice guy, funny personality...Its hard not to like him and want him to do well. He has been an exciting goalie to watch over the yrs and has shown signs of greatness....BUT he let in goals a HS goalie could stop, sure there were some where he was hung out to dry on odd man rushes, and the D often let the back door wide open (Orpik) but you cant blame them for all of his failures.

But what contradicts that line of thinking, are the bad goals that he let in. Getting hung out to dry on a two on one or, a team not clearing rebounds out is one thing, but several of the goals that he let in during the playoffs were just horrible goals... some on shots that weren't even going in.

His problems are all between his ears... it's not a team who isn't playing great in front of him, it's when faced with the slightest adversity in a pressure game, he goes to the zoo.
- rival22

I agree with that 100%, like I said MAF was not good in the playoffs this year or last, when it comes to skill I still believe MAF is the better goalie.

215mike's only chance of taking this home was if you had something to do today.

I should have known he didn't stand a chance.
- canadianpenfan

He was toast the moment I was given something to do. It assured I'd put it off to post here instead.

I agree with that 100%, like I said MAF was not good in the playoffs this year or last, when it comes to skill I still believe MAF is the better goalie.
- nbartley9

when it comes to pure skill, there arent many id put above him. his quickness and athleticism are awesome. sometimes the saves he can make just make you shake your head. it just makes it that much more frustrating when he allows shots that literally most of us could prevent.

FYI

@RobRossi_Trib - #TribHKY as for #pens and Dupuis - seems that dialogue left both sides feeling comfortable with how process will move forward in coming days

FYI

@RobRossi_Trib - #TribHKY as for #pens and Dupuis - seems that dialogue left both sides feeling comfortable with how process will move forward in coming days
- cap1681

ya ya he also tweeted we wont hear anything about pens and letang for a few days prior to that tweet..

I agree with that 100%, like I said MAF was not good in the playoffs this year or last, when it comes to skill I still believe MAF is the better goalie.
- nbartley9

You can have all the skill in the world. But when you let in awful goals at bad times, subsequently not ruining only your confidence but that of your teammates as well, all that skill is worth nothing.

FYI

@RobRossi_Trib - #TribHKY as for #pens and Dupuis - seems that dialogue left both sides feeling comfortable with how process will move forward in coming days
- cap1681

Good to hear It's a matter of time before we sign him for 3 years @ $3M per