go on...
- Crimsoninja

the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols

You miss out on his 2009-10 playoff production, though: 30 points in 23 games. You also miss his 2007-08 playoff production: 16 points in 17 games. And maybe, without his signing, Timonen and Hartnell don't sign after their rights were acquired. Briere's signing showed the league the Flyers were seriously about a quick turnaround.
- Flyskippy

Weren't Timonen and Hartnall traded for and signed before Briere became a free agent that year?

So the lack of a training camp with a roster consisting mostly of returning players was something that couldn't be adapted to.

However, once an influx of brand new players who had little to no experience with the NHL game/Flyers came in, they were able to instantly adapt?
- jmatchett383

Rookies and depth players are on a much tighter leash than the guys they replaced... they don't have the leeway to take chances with the puck. Despite Lavi's system not being blameless, that's one of the reasons why I feel like the players hold an equal share of the responsibility -- turnovers, mistakes, misreads and poor adherence to the system are going to make any coach look bad.

Case in point, Bylsma's a darned good coach... his players just almost got him fired. Luckily, Shero's got enough sense to realize that his coaches are only part of the problem. Luckily, Homer reached that same conclusion earlier as well.

Rookies and depth players are on a much tighter leash than the guys they replaced... they don't have the leeway to take chances with the puck. Despite Lavi's system not being blameless, that's one of the reasons why I feel like the players hold an equal share of the responsibility -- turnovers, mistakes, misreads and poor adherence to the system are going to make any coach look bad.

Case in point, Bylsma's a darned good coach... his players just almost got him fired. Luckily, Shero's got enough sense to realize that his coaches are only part of the problem. Seems like Homer reached that same conclusion earlier as well.
- Tomahawk

All that proved to me was the Laviolette was asking too much of his veterans. Now, if he can employ the same system he used late in the season when he has a healthy lineup to start, I'll be much happier. If he goes back to the same pinching scheme, not so much.

the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols
- jmatchett383

well played

Weren't Timonen and Hartnall traded for and signed before Briere became a free agent that year?
- eayost

Yes, although TECHNICALLY I think they were all signed on the same day. But the deals were in place before he signed.

Damn, I should have been more specific. I meant off ice. By losing Pronger did he lose his chance at gaining support and confidence from his team?
- jak521

Interesting idea. I have no doubt that Pronger's loss in the locker room is almost as huge as his loss on the ice. The way he handled the media was amazing. And I doubt he took much flak from idiots on the team. Maybe he could have smacked Bryz around a bit and/or helped the rest of the guys forget about Bryzisms. Who knows? It could have gone the other way too and Pronger could have been a loud voice condemning him. So hard to read such things. But it is interesting to think that they might have gotten along.

Damn, I should have been more specific. I meant off ice. By losing Pronger did he lose his chance at gaining support and confidence from his team?
- jak521

I recall him generally saying all the right things after Bryz was signed, but it sure didn't seem to me like there was a meaningful relationship between the two. It's too bad that Pronger was hurt during 24/7 because it would have been hilarious to see him react to Bryz's antics in his trademark snark.

Recent history would lead you to think that his system is hapless against teams that play it closer to the vest, but Lavi's system did beat three straight defensive clubs en route to the Finals in 2010, and also overcame a really tight Devils team en route to the Cup in 2006.
- Tomahawk

Saw some great quotes from Dallas Eakins at his EDM press conference about how he wants Edmonton to play multiple systems since not all opponents are the same, and because teams are so heavily scouted.

All that proved to me was the Laviolette was asking too much of his veterans. Now, if he can employ the same system he used late in the season when he has a healthy lineup to start, I'll be much happier. If he goes back to the same pinching scheme, not so much.
- jmatchett383

His vets were doing things like repeatedly trying cross-ice, backhand, blind passes through defenders at the bluelines... if Lauridsen even dared think of doing that just once, he'd be back riding the bus.

Simplifying the reads/responsibilities was a great fit for the personnel at the time... not sure you'll see guys like Streit and Coburn and Mez being content to chip the puck out and confine themselves to six-foot passes if Lavi keeps the simple system in place, though.

His vets were doing things like repeatedly trying cross-ice, backhand, blind passes through defenders at the bluelines... if Lauridsen even dared think of doing that just once, he'd be back riding the bus.

Simplifying the reads/responsibilities was a great fit for the personnel at the time... not sure you'll see guys like Streit and Coburn and Mez being content to chip the puck out and confine themselves to six-foot passes if Lavi keeps the simple system in place, though.
- Tomahawk

He was trying to play an offesnive press with defensive defensemen. How many times was Grossmann caught way out of position trying to pinch up the wall? Granted, the transition game was a nightmare, but he was asking the vets to play our of their comfort zones. A guy like Chris Pronger can do that because he's Chris Pronger. Matt Carle can do it because he's a good skater. But when you have guy like Grossmann and Schenn pinching at the points, a la the 2011-2012 team, it leads to oddman rushes and goals.

briere will go down in my mind as the #1 fa we ever got that earned every single penny of his huge contract.

Sure, but that's assuming nobody would step up in his absence. Richards was a great PO performer in his own right (just as consistent as Briere), Giroux turned out to be money in the bank, Gagne scored a few huge PO goals, JvR had his outstanding run.

And remember, even with Briere being great in the PO's, they still only came within spitting distance of the prize once... and that was just as much a product of having Pronger, and Leighton/Bouch playing above their heads, as it was b/c Briere was going nuts that summer.


- Tomahawk

Bu that logic, the LA KIngs didn't need Anze Kopitar last year, because someone could've stepped up in his ansence. And they had other playoff performers such as Dustin Brown and Quick.
Bottom line is you need all hands on deck. And you just can't dismiss the playoff production that Briere gave, because someone else might have stepped up.

Once again, I have some time to kill so FWIW here is how I think the 1st 10 picks will go, barring any trades.
1. COL Jones
2. FLA MacKinnon
3. TB Drouin (I think the talk of Nichushkin to Tampa is just talk, Yzerman will take the sure thing at #3)
4. NAS Barkov
5. CAR Nichushkin (could certainly see them trading down to someone who wants Nichuhkin badly enough)
6. CAL Monahan
7. EDM Nurse
8. BUF Lindholm
9. NJD Shinkaruk (Devils need scoring, he's the best scorer left)
10. DAL Pulock (the big shot is too much to pass up)

If it goes like this, then I see the Flyers either trading down or picking Ristolainen at #11.
I could certainly see someone like Columbus trading up. They could really use help at center as could Phoenix and Winnipeg. If there is a center that they are really high on, be it Wennberg, Domi or Horvat, perhaps the Flyers swap the 11th pick and the 41st for the 14th and 27th picks. If that happens I could see the following beginning at #11

11. CLM Domi
12. PHX Horvat
13. WPG Wennberg
14. PHL Ristolainen (This is why I like the idea of making the above deal!)
15. NYI Fucale (time to get the goalie of the future for Brooklyn)
16. BUF Erne
17. OTT Zadorov
18. DET Hagg
19. CLM Morrissey
20. SJS Morin (with Morin off the table, Holmgren may look to deal the 27th pick)
21. TOR Lazar
22. CAL Burakovsky
23. WAS Rychel
24. VAN Mantha
25. MON Gauthier
26. ANA Zykov
and
27. PHL (Philly sends this pick and their 2nd rounder next year to STL for JayBo)

If the above happens, the Flyers would then most likely trade Mezaros for the highest pick they can get and go into camp with the following D
Locks: Timonen, Streit, Schenn, JayBo, Coburn
Lock if healthy or not traded: Grossmann
Near lock: Gustafsson
maybes: Ristolainen, Gervais
long shots: Bourdon and Lauridsen

Any one of the younger players could have pulled a Bryan Bickell if given the opportunity.

This team has just been forced to make so many decisions on players based on lack of cap-space and limited minutes, partly because of Briere... I always wonder if they wouldn't have been a better team if they had taken their time w/ the rebuild vs immediately reloading.
- Tomahawk

Could've of being the key word. What good is cap space if it's not used? Most good teams have to make decisions based on cap space. Would you prefer the Flyers are one of the teams that have constant holes in their lineup, while having a bunch of unused Cap space? We can with the title of most Cap space unused at the end of the Season.

He was trying to play an offesnive press with defensive defensemen. How many times was Grossmann caught way out of position trying to pinch up the wall? Granted, the transition game was a nightmare, but he was asking the vets to play our of their comfort zones. A guy like Chris Pronger can do that because he's Chris Pronger. Matt Carle can do it because he's a good skater. But when you have guy like Grossmann and Schenn pinching at the points, a la the 2011-2012 team, it leads to oddman rushes and goals.
- jmatchett383

Pronger skates like he's stuck in molasses, I don't recall him ever being asked to pinch deep enough to get caught. And Lavi's had guys like O'Donnell, Tollefsen, Walker, Bourdon, & Kubina that were just as slow-footed, yet the team never looked this bad in previous years.

I chalk a lot of it up to youthful exuberance and inexperience, compounded by a defense wracked by injuries. Laying it all on Lavi's doorstep is a bit unfair.

Once again, I have some time to kill so FWIW here is how I think the 1st 10 picks will go, barring any trades.
1. COL Jones
2. FLA MacKinnon
3. TB Drouin (I think the talk of Nichushkin to Tampa is just talk, Yzerman will take the sure thing at #3)
4. NAS Barkov
5. CAR Nichushkin (could certainly see them trading down to someone who wants Nichuhkin badly enough)
6. CAL Monahan
7. EDM Nurse
8. BUF Lindholm
9. NJD Shinkaruk (Devils need scoring, he's the best scorer left)
10. DAL Pulock (the big shot is too much to pass up)

If it goes like this, then I see the Flyers either trading down or picking Ristolainen at #11.
I could certainly see someone like Columbus trading up. They could really use help at center as could Phoenix and Winnipeg. If there is a center that they are really high on, be it Wennberg, Domi or Horvat, perhaps the Flyers swap the 11th pick and the 41st for the 14th and 27th picks. If that happens I could see the following beginning at #11

11. CLM Domi
12. PHX Horvat
13. WPG Wennberg
14. PHL Ristolainen (This is why I like the idea of making the above deal!)
15. NYI Fucale (time to get the goalie of the future for Brooklyn)
16. BUF Erne
17. OTT Zadorov
18. DET Hagg
19. CLM Morrissey
20. SJS Morin (with Morin off the table, Holmgren may look to deal the 27th pick)
21. TOR Lazar
22. CAL Burakovsky
23. WAS Rychel
24. VAN Mantha
25. MON Gauthier
26. ANA Zykov
and
27. PHL (Philly sends this pick and their 2nd rounder next year to STL for JayBo)

If the above happens, the Flyers would then most likely trade Mezaros for the highest pick they can get and go into camp with the following D
Locks: Timonen, Streit, Schenn, JayBo, Coburn
Lock if healthy or not traded: Grossmann
Near lock: Gustafsson
maybes: Ristolainen, Gervais
long shots: Bourdon and Lauridsen
- BiggE

not bad at all - can they afford JayBo and Streit?

Didn't Homer come out and say that Lavi made adjustments in the defensive zone (to play more like other teams in the division, aka collapsing) at the start of the year but the players struggled to adapt due to lack of camp/practice?

He also simplified the system overall once all the rookies got into the lineup.

That seems like a guy who's more willing to adapt to his circumstances than fans tend to give him credit for. Of course, what everybody really wanted, was for Lavi to xerox Sutter's or DeBoer's systems.
- Tomahawk

He made a minor change in the way the Flyers cover the puck down low. And the other change was way too late. Do you think Laviolette plays that way next Season, or reverts back to his beloved ultra aggressive press forecheck puck pressure system?

briere will go down in my mind as the #1 fa we ever got that earned every single penny of his huge contract.
- mydoglicks

(not laughing at your statement.. just love the conviction behind it)

Once again, I have some time to kill so FWIW here is how I think the 1st 10 picks will go, barring any trades.

...

If the above happens, the Flyers would then most likely trade Mezaros for the highest pick they can get and go into camp with the following D
Locks: Timonen, Streit, Schenn, JayBo, Coburn
Lock if healthy or not traded: Grossmann
Near lock: Gustafsson
maybes: Ristolainen, Gervais
long shots: Bourdon and Lauridsen
- BiggE

That's fine, but now you've got Gustafsson sitting in the Jody Shelley suite every night until someone's injured.

(not laughing at your statement.. just love the conviction behind it)
- Crimsoninja

This site is in desperate need of a sarcasm font.

Pronger skates like he's stuck in molasses, I don't recall him ever being asked to pinch deep enough to get caught. And Lavi's had guys like O'Donnell, Tollefsen, Walker, Bourdon, & Kubina that were just as slow-footed, yet the team never looked this bad in previous years.

I chalk a lot of it to youthful exuberance and inexperience, compounded by a slow-footed defense wracked by injuries. Laying it all on Lavi's doorstep is a bit unfair.
- Tomahawk

I fall somewhere between you and Jmatchett. I do think that Lavi waited to long to adjust his system to better fit his talent and that most likely cost the club 5-10 points. Furthermore I won't blame the injuries on D for the Flyers troubles as most of them happened later in the season.

The other factors that in my opinion seriously hurt the Flyers were:
The injury to Hartnell in the 1st week and the fact that he really didn't get to 100% til the last week or so of the season.
Briere's early season injury when neither Schenn nor Couturier were ready to step in as 2nd line centers.
The failure to re-sign Jagr which would have significantly helped Schenn or Couturier to become 2nd line centers.
Holmgren not having a 4th line center on the roster that could win a faceoff, this to me was a bigger need than adding another 3rd line winger like Fedotenko
And, finally, not having a legit backup goalie on the roster to spell and if needed push Bryz a little.

Yes, Lavi certainly gets some blame, but no more than Holmgren and the players and I am ok with giving him one more season. With that being said, if they get off to a bad start it won't surprise me at all to Lavi gone by Christmas.

That's fine, but now you've got Gustafsson sitting in the Jody Shelley suite every night until someone's injured.
- jmatchett383

Which will be the 3rd pre-season game.

not bad at all - can they afford JayBo and Streit?
- flyersfan51

If they buyout Bryz and Briere, trade Mez, put Pronger on LTIR and fill holes in the forward lines with youth or inexpensive players, than yes they can afford both.
The forward lines would look like:
Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Gagne or McGinn-Schenn-Read
Gagne, Talbot or McGinn-Couturier-Simmonds
Talbot, McGinn or Rosehill-Laughton-Rinaldo

I fall somewhere between you and Jmatchett. I do think that Lavi waited to long to adjust his system to better fit his talent and that most likely cost the club 5-10 points. Furthermore I won't blame the injuries on D for the Flyers troubles as most of them happened later in the season.

The other factors that in my opinion seriously hurt the Flyers were:
The injury to Hartnell in the 1st week and the fact that he really didn't get to 100% til the last week or so of the season.
Briere's early season injury when neither Schenn nor Couturier were ready to step in as 2nd line centers.
The failure to re-sign Jagr which would have significantly helped Schenn or Couturier to become 2nd line centers.
Holmgren not having a 4th line center on the roster that could win a faceoff, this to me was a bigger need than adding another 3rd line winger like Fedotenko
And, finally, not having a legit backup goalie on the roster to spell and if needed push Bryz a little.

Yes, Lavi certainly gets some blame, but no more than Holmgren and the players and I am ok with giving him one more season. With that being said, if they get off to a bad start it won't surprise me at all to Lavi gone by Christmas.
- BiggE

I don't mean to put it all on Lavi. It just seemed obvious that there was a problem with the D, and he waited until we had a bunch of injuries to adapt. I just would have wanted him to change things up earlier. And yes, no one is blameless in the situation.