Y'know the more I think about it, if Homer could sign Backstrom to even a 3 year 15-mil contract, it would be worth it to jettison Bryz's longer contract.
- flyler

Unless the Flyers change their style Backstrom will not survive a 3 year deal either. I say sign free agent Mike Smith or gamble on free agent J. Eriksson and bring him over. Rumour has it several teams talking to Ericksson, our former draft pic and have heard the Oilers are very serious about him.

Y'know the more I think about it, if Homer could sign Backstrom to even a 3 year 15-mil contract, it would be worth it to jettison Bryz's longer contract.
- flyler

35+ contract is the prob. 2 yrs max for me

OK. Why?
- 77rams

He's made a few nice moves -- Hossa/Dupuis trade, James Neal trade, Vokoun signing.

A few decent drafts. (not counting being gifted #1 picks)

Outside of that, I don't think his moves haven't been all that great and his team is headed into a cap bind.

Here's the thing I really hate about the Cap. It's turned fans into bean counters. "He's a good player but is he worth that contract?", "that contract is too long, we'll never be able to move it". I would really love to go back to not giving a crap what a player is paid, only if they are doing a good job.
- flyler

I'm fine with sports that have salary caps (except the stupid one deployed in the NBA). I think it's adds an interesting layer of complexity in discussing sports teams.

Where I find things get skewed is when fans get too wrapped up in the cap logistics at the expense of understanding the market place for a given player and how that player fits on a given team.

They don't give out Stanley Cups for having a well-managed cap....but you probably can't win the Cup with a poorly managed salary cap.

This is true, but the one thing I'll say about that is this: "We," as in the overall fanbase and/or the media, aren't exactly guiltless in this regard.

In 2010, Boston gave up the ghost to the Flyers in a fashion that has only been done three times in NHL history.

If that had happened in Philadelphia, fans would've stormed Claude Julien's house with torches and pitchforks. Peter Chiarelli, too.

We can't even pretend that wouldn't be the case, because Peter Laviolette -- who has accomplished just as much in his coaching career as Claude Julien now, and had done more than Claude Julien as of 2010...the majority of us want him fired.

We want Paul Holmgren fired.

We believe Scott Hartnell, who has averaged 25-ish goals for his Flyers career, should be traded.

We want Braydon Coburn, who is clearly a Top 4 defenseman with a great cap hit for that role, traded.

As a whole, there have been so many times where the fanbase or media just can't be just patient enough to let any particular set of Flyers key players to fail, grow and succeed together.

Ilya Bryzgalov wasn't wrong when he said that the Philadelphia media, for example, is always looking for a scapegoat and that it's usually the goalie.

Does that mean that Peter Laviolette and Paul Holmgren and Bob Clarke and Ken Hitchcock and John Stevens, etc., are blameless? Of course not. When you don't win, there should always be introspection.

But introspection...it doesn't always have to be firings or trades. Claude Julien didn't get gassed in 2010, got to come back in 2011 and win.

On the other hand, the Peter Laviolette deathwatch is on after one missed season of the playoffs, in a shortened season, when the guy posted a 103-point season just last year.

Philadelphia..it's tough. At times, I don't know if we, as a fanbase, have the patience it requires to win.
- AllInForFlyers

No we don't.

He's made a few nice moves -- Hossa/Dupuis trade, James Neal trade, Vokoun signing.

A few decent drafts. (not counting being gifted #1 picks)

Outside of that, I don't think his moves haven't been all that great and his team is headed into a cap bind.
- bradleyc4

So, you do think his moves have been all that great?

Unless the Flyers change their style Backstrom will not survive a 3 year deal either. I say sign free agent Mike Smith or gamble on free agent J. Eriksson and bring him over. Rumour has it several teams talking to Ericksson, our former draft pic and have heard the Oilers are very serious about him.
- flyerdude17

As far as goalies who benifit from team systems, Smith is one of the top. He was originally drafted by Dallas because he played a similiar style to Turco. His Tenure in Tampa was mixed to say the least. He only got really good in Phoenix... the last place Bryz played... sense the pattern?

Backstrom has played through Lemaire's defensive system and the more aggressive systems put in and done well. I think he's a much better pick. Though I do agree that the over 35 clause makes me want to bring down either the money paid or the contract length.

Oh and I'm actually a Mike Smith Fan, I just do not think he's a good fit for Philly.

He's made a few nice moves -- Hossa/Dupuis trade, James Neal trade, Vokoun signing.

A few decent drafts. (not counting being gifted #1 picks)

Outside of that, I don't think his moves haven't been all that great and his team is headed into a cap bind.
- bradleyc4

Kinda like what the Flyers have been in since Homer's been here. With the exception of Malkin (who's due a new contract after next next year), they're in pretty good shape, cap-wise. No worse off than the Flyers will be at the same time.

The Roberts, Kunitz, Niskanen (throw-in) moves weren't bad either.

Yet carrying two 8.7 mil contracts (agree, not a bad inheritance) and a bloated 5 mil goaltender, he seems to be able to stay in contention every year and able to acquire nice pieces into his lineup every TD.

He's made a few nice moves -- Hossa/Dupuis trade, James Neal trade, Vokoun signing.

A few decent drafts. (not counting being gifted #1 picks)

Outside of that, I don't think his moves haven't been all that great and his team is headed into a cap bind.
- bradleyc4

Which drafts of his were decent?

I for one, hope they don't buy out Bryz. No way I want part of his contract sticking around for the next 14 years. Then 4 years from now, people will be b*tching that his hanging cap is "bogging us down" from making other moves.

If it was a 100% buyout, and the cap was negated completely, I'd go along with it. But I just don't see any way you can justify having him on the books for that long, essentially just dead space.

Briere, however, could probably be dealt with for a few years.

Bryz, I wouldn't label a #1 concern. He wasn't worth the money this season, but he was certainly solid enough to give them chances. If anything, try to pry him from his NMC, and find someone to pull a fast one on a trade for practically no return.

I just don't see carrying that dead weight in cap is the best choice right now. Especially since they're always at the very top line of cap space anyway...
- WarriorHockey21

If they use a compliance buy out on Bryzgalov, he comes off the salary cap completely. Doesn't count a dime against the cap. They still have to pay him, but it's off the salary cap entirely.

This is true, but the one thing I'll say about that is this: "We," as in the overall fanbase and/or the media, aren't exactly guiltless in this regard.

In 2010, Boston gave up the ghost to the Flyers in a fashion that has only been done three times in NHL history.

If that had happened in Philadelphia, fans would've stormed Claude Julien's house with torches and pitchforks. Peter Chiarelli, too.

We can't even pretend that wouldn't be the case, because Peter Laviolette -- who has accomplished just as much in his coaching career as Claude Julien now, and had done more than Claude Julien as of 2010...the majority of us want him fired.

We want Paul Holmgren fired.

We believe Scott Hartnell, who has averaged 25-ish goals for his Flyers career, should be traded.

We want Braydon Coburn, who is clearly a Top 4 defenseman with a great cap hit for that role, traded.

As a whole, there have been so many times where the fanbase or media just can't be just patient enough to let any particular set of Flyers key players to fail, grow and succeed together.

Ilya Bryzgalov wasn't wrong when he said that the Philadelphia media, for example, is always looking for a scapegoat and that it's usually the goalie.

Does that mean that Peter Laviolette and Paul Holmgren and Bob Clarke and Ken Hitchcock and John Stevens, etc., are blameless? Of course not. When you don't win, there should always be introspection.

But introspection...it doesn't always have to be firings or trades. Claude Julien didn't get gassed in 2010, got to come back in 2011 and win.

On the other hand, the Peter Laviolette deathwatch is on after one missed season of the playoffs, in a shortened season, when the guy posted a 103-point season just last year.

Philadelphia..it's tough. At times, I don't know if we, as a fanbase, have the patience it requires to win.
- AllInForFlyers

This is not incorrect, but generalizing isn't really correct.

I try to be patient. I was patient with JvR and I have been patient with Schenn, Couturier, etc.

I spent almost two seasons defending Bryzgalov and I've argued vehemently against rushing young players.

I do want Laviolette to be fired, because I see issues that have been around for more than just this short season. I see a guy who is stubborn to a fault and who has serious troubles against teams who play with a lot of discipline in terms of staying in their roles and playing their game. His record against the Rangers and Devils the last two years is an example of this.

But I digress. There are a lot of people that feel they should be contenders out of the box after massive changes and major personnel losses(like Pronger)

Which drafts of his were decent?
- aightwebang17

Oy, yeah. None of them.

Oy, yeah. None of them.
- bradleyc4

He's landed some promising first rounders, Bennett, Despres, Morrow, Maatta

He's landed some promising first rounders, Bennett, Despres, Morrow, Maatta
- Jsaquella

He also missed big time with Esposito and took Jordan Staal over J. Toews.

Also not a fan of his trade deadline moves, especially this year. The Guerin one a few years ago seemed to work, but otherwise, meh.

He's landed some promising first rounders, Bennett, Despres, Morrow, Maatta
- Jsaquella

Don't forget Derrick Pouliot

Also not a fan of his trade deadline moves, especially this year. The Guerin one a few years ago seemed to work, but otherwise, meh.
- bradleyc4

I wonder what Jarome Iginla is thinking right now, since he spurned Boston in favor of Pittsburgh when he was traded.

Don't forget Derrick Pouliot
- ob18

Yeah, him, too

After the Bruins hammered the Flyers in 2011, we saw sweeping changes to the team.

I wonder if big changes are in store for the Penguins?

MAF, Byalsma I think are at risk of leaving.
Iginla likely won't be back.

Anything else possible?
- Marc D

They aren't a team they lacks skill, or speed, or size. They're arguably the most stacked team in the league at this moment. They're problem is maturity, discipline, team play, and a commitment from forwards to play D. They're problems all stem from poor coaching. Imagine how utterly unstoppable the Penguins would be if they had a coach like Joel Queenville, Mike Babcock, Claude Julien, or Darryl Sutter. It wouldn't be fair. The best teams in the league are the best teams in the league because they have both an A class roster and an elite caliber coach. The Penguins are a good example of what you get with the A class roster but without the A class coach.

I wonder what Jarome Iginla is thinking right now, since he spurned Boston in favor of Pittsburgh when he was traded.
- johndewar

"I should not have spurned Boston in favor of Pittsburgh when I was traded" I would imagine.

This is not incorrect, but generalizing isn't really correct.

I try to be patient. I was patient with JvR and I have been patient with Schenn, Couturier, etc.

I spent almost two seasons defending Bryzgalov and I've argued vehemently against rushing young players.

I do want Laviolette to be fired, because I see issues that have been around for more than just this short season. I see a guy who is stubborn to a fault and who has serious troubles against teams who play with a lot of discipline in terms of staying in their roles and playing their game. His record against the Rangers and Devils the last two years is an example of this.

But I digress. There are a lot of people that feel they should be contenders out of the box after massive changes and major personnel losses(like Pronger)
- Jsaquella

Trust me, I don't mean that in the way that we're these horrible people who froth at the mouth incessantly...we're fans. We just want to win.

But sometimes, we're not going to. Someone said it yesterday, and it was mentioned again today, that we're into our second rebuild under Paul Holmgren.

I'm honest enough to admit this: I'm not certain the Richards/Carter core was going to beat the Crosby/Malkin core. I don't know that it wouldn't have, because the Flyers had horrific luck with Coburn's eye injury and Timonen's blood clot, so I'm not positive that the Flyers couldn't have beaten them, straight-up, but I'm not certain they could. Know what I mean?

Boston was up on the Flyers 3-0 before they collapsed in 2010. But they flat-out destroyed the Flyers in 2011 -- that was men against boys in every way. I've never seen the Flyers get physically dominated like they were that series. They absolutely KILLED us. So it could easily be argued that the Flyers were behind the Bruins, too.

So when the Flyers traded Richards and Carter, I was as shocked, as stunned, as anyone. I literally stared at the screen for five minutes when it was on TSN.ca.

But then I thought about it, and it was the honest truth: The Flyers had taken four shots, four legitimate shots, at the Cup with that core. They lost twice to the Pens, once to a stacked Blackhawks team, once to the the B's...who were in the same youth cycle we were. They weren't going away.

So, what to do? Should we have stood pat? Or do you shuffle the deck?

I don't know which answer I would have chosen. I'm not certain. I don't know, to this day.

But I can understand why the Flyers did it. I can understand what they're trying to do now. If they blow up this core right now, or even after next year....what was the point?

Peter Laviolette isn't a perfect coach. Far from it. But it's clear that the players are still listening AT THIS POINT. They responded to him down the stretch, didn't fold.

With that in mind, knowing that Laviolette is capable of winning big, I just have to hope that for once, this organization and fanbase recognizes that right now, we are -- or should be -- married to three players: Claude Giroux, Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn.

We need Claude Giroux to be the player he is: A Top 10 player in the entire league.

And we need both Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn to develop for us, to maximize their potential. Not so we can keep the forever, but so we don't sell low on them, not get enough return, then watch them excel elsewhere AND not see the reward that came with us rebuilding on the fly.

Trust me -- I know you know this. I know the vast majority of people who post here know this. It's why I started posting here -- the people here are honestly rational. Even if I don't agree with someone, or vice versa, the people here are rational.

But we're married to this rebuild. We have to be. We have to see this through. If we're lucky, and if Paul Holmgren does his job and these players HOPEFULLY develop...we have to be able to give them multiple shots at winning this thing.

I just feel so strongly that we have to see this through. We can't sell low on Couturier or Schenn. We just can't.

He is aggressive, and I think that's where some of the carelessness has crept in.

Like I said in my first post, I'm a big fan of Homer in most respects. Putting the focus on his penchant for missteps isn't necessarily saying I don't like the guy -- he's got pros and cons like everybody else.

Yeah, Holland is probably one of the few... he never gets caught with his pants down and he's calculated and methodical. Chiarelli is the other. He's had to deal with just as much sh*t flying out of left field as Homer (Thomas walking out on the team, Savard stuck on LTIR), but somehow has cap space and all his core intact.
- Tomahawk

The problem is when you unfairly call choices made, careless. If you call a defenseman mistake prone. What are you insinuating? That he's a good defenseman or a bad defenseman? It's simply not an accurate description of Holmgren as a GM. Same as saying the Flyers are a team that is going no where fast, is not an accurate description of the team.

Here's the thing I really hate about the Cap. It's turned fans into bean counters. "He's a good player but is he worth that contract?", "that contract is too long, we'll never be able to move it". I would really love to go back to not giving a crap what a player is paid, only if they are doing a good job.
- flyler

Couldn't agree more. The Cap blows. Not to mention it doesn't do what it is intended to do.

He's made a few nice moves -- Hossa/Dupuis trade, James Neal trade, Vokoun signing.

A few decent drafts. (not counting being gifted #1 picks)

Outside of that, I don't think his moves haven't been all that great and his team is headed into a cap bind.
- bradleyc4

Heading into a cap bind is inevitable, when you have a top team with a lot of very good players.

Yeah, him, too
- Jsaquella

Or even Scott Harrington a 2nd rounder in 2011.

...
With that in mind, knowing that Laviolette is capable of winning big, I just have to hope that for once, this organization and fanbase recognizes that right now, we are -- or should be -- married to three players: Claude Giroux, Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn.

We need Claude Giroux to be the player he is: A Top 10 player in the entire league.

And we need both Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn to develop for us, to maximize their potential. Not so we can keep the forever, but so we don't sell low on them, not get enough return, then watch them excel elsewhere AND not see the reward that came with us rebuilding on the fly.

Trust me -- I know you know this. I know the vast majority of people who post here know this. It's why I started posting here -- the people here are honestly rational. Even if I don't agree with someone, or vice versa, the people here are rational.

But we're married to this rebuild. We have to be. We have to see this through. If we're lucky, and if Paul Holmgren does his job and these players HOPEFULLY develop...we have to be able to give them multiple shots at winning this thing.

I just feel so strongly that we have to see this through. We can't sell low on Couturier or Schenn. We just can't.
- AllInForFlyers

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