This one isn't a mistake. Soon to be UFAs don't have the same trade value, and those trades each brought back great value (Pronger's injury not withstanding). The cap was a consideration, but I think you're really mischaracterizing these trades to call them mistakes.
- BulliesPhan87

I agree, but I also agree that everything else he listed was a mistake.

This! If the NHL allows "amendments" for players like Redden and Gomez, why not write in another "amendment" for the players that actually need it. Head injuries are normally not predictable, so there is no claim that a team knowingly signed a concussion-prone player to a long contract with the intention of using a CBO (before they were even instituted) in order to circumvent the cap. It's laughable. Instead, the teams have to go through these stupid dances where a player is on your team, then LTIR, but cannot do it during the off-season, blah blah blah. I think it's time for another amendment.....
- steelydan

It's not a perfect explanation, but I think it's HRR politics. The NHLPA wouldn't support letting teams buy out injured players, as they'd get less than 100% of the dollar value on the balance of the contract. The league wouldn't approve an amendment that allows a buyout if the players get more money. Or something like that.

Hahahahaha... I have a picture of him in a wig.

(I won't post it skip so chill)
- mayorofangrytown

No worries, were I still at lunch instead of on my phone I'd have posted the pic of me wearing the wig holding my old giant Wawa mug.

It's not a perfect explanation, but I think it's HRR politics. The NHLPA wouldn't support letting teams buy out injured players, as they'd get less than 100% of the dollar value on the balance of the contract. The league wouldn't approve an amendment that allows a buyout if the players get more money. Or something like that.
- BulliesPhan87

Yeah, it would either eat into players' share or decrease the owners' share or both, not to mention the LTIR'd players themselves probably prefer getting paid 100% of moneys owed.

GM's probably are the only ones who would be on board for an amendment, and maybe insurance companies.

I agree, but I also agree that everything else he listed was a mistake.
- Feanor

To varying degrees, they're mistakes. Holmgren doesn't own all (perhaps even most) the blame on the Bryzgalov contract, but that's the biggest one in my mind. Other things like Upshall, Metropolit, and Vaananan are things I can stomach, they were details that had to be sanded over getting the best players they could on the roster.

No worries, were I still at lunch instead of on my phone I'd have posted the pic of me wearing the wig holding my old giant Wawa mug.
- Flyskippy

Some one was agitated I posted the group picture. Like you could automatically just tell who was who.

Yeah, it would either eat into players' share or decrease the owners' share or both, not to mention the LTIR'd players themselves probably prefer getting paid 100% of moneys owed.

GM's probably are the only ones who would be on board for an amendment, and maybe insurance companies.
- Tomahawk

The HRR might get smoothed over in escrow, I'm not sure, but I feel like the owners just wouldn't approve it on principle.

I don't have a better way of doing things, but this situation of politics and negotiation really isn't great for making a logical set of rules, is it?

Forced to waive Vaananen and Metropolit before the '09 PO's because he didn't leave enough cap room to activate Briere from IR, the team then proceeded to lose in opening round to Pens partly because they didn't have enough depth,

Chose to draft Mathers instead of Hyka because they thought they could just sign Hyka post-camp as an undrafted UFA... turns out Hyka had to go back into the next draft (woops),

Decided to sign Lilja to a two-year contract on first day of UFA, even though it invoked 35+ status... Lilja spent almost the balance of that 2nd year in the AHL, would have created dead space against the cap as a result if not for CBA rule changes,

Signed Pronger to his back-diving extension not realizing that 35+ status kicked in when the contract came into effect, not when the contract was actually signed (Pronger was still 34 at the time),

Pre-emptively handed Lupul, Carter, Richards and JvR big-$ extensions, and then proceeded to trade all of them shortly thereafter due to (in part) cap concerns,

Didn't leave enough cap room to re-sign Upshall, dealt him for Carcillo(!),

Forced to dump Gagne for worse than nothing (had to take Matt Walker) because he they were desperate to shed salary after previously adding Meszaros and Zherdev(!),

Eminger(!) for a 1st-round draft pick, bye bye Markstrom/Carlson,

Traded for rights of Hamhuis and Nabokov even though indications were strong they wouldn't sign in Philly,

Asked Jagr and Carle to wait while he chased Suter/Parise... not surprisingly, they didn't,

Bryzgalov.



Now, don't get me wrong, I like Homer as GM, but those mistakes are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

(And... I understand it's in your nature to refute every last one of these, but they're really not up for debate, sorry.)
- Tomahawk

The problem there is that it is just you're opinion that they're mistakes. And some of them are definitley up to debate. And if you want to, we can certainly do that, one by one. Secondly, if you look at any GM's record, you can find plenty of moves that didn't work out in hindsight. Thirdly, you aren't giving the proper context by also looking at all the quality moves he did make, that have worked out.
I'll refrain from making any personal comments towards you, and stick to the Hockey content.

The reasons why they were traded may be varied, but the common thread is that Homer signed them all well in advance of them being FA's, almost always after career-seasons/incredible hot-streaks -- the real mistakes were made at the negotiating table.
- Tomahawk

I can live with that to an extent....especially with the length of the deals.

On the flip side, some cushion was negotiated in the front of some of those contracts such that if a deal did come up, NMC had not taken effect yet.

Forced to waive Vaananen and Metropolit before the '09 PO's because he didn't leave enough cap room to activate Briere from IR, the team then proceeded to lose in opening round to Pens partly because they didn't have enough depth,

Chose to draft Mathers instead of Hyka because they thought they could just sign Hyka post-camp as an undrafted UFA... turns out Hyka had to go back into the next draft (woops),

Decided to sign Lilja to a two-year contract on first day of UFA, even though it invoked 35+ status... Lilja spent almost the balance of that 2nd year in the AHL, would have created dead space against the cap as a result if not for CBA rule changes,

Signed Pronger to his back-diving extension not realizing that 35+ status kicked in when the contract came into effect, not when the contract was actually signed (Pronger was still 34 at the time),

Pre-emptively handed Lupul, Carter, Richards and JvR big-$ extensions, and then proceeded to trade all of them shortly thereafter due to (in part) cap concerns,

Didn't leave enough cap room to re-sign Upshall, dealt him for Carcillo(!),

Forced to dump Gagne for worse than nothing (had to take Matt Walker) because he they were desperate to shed salary after previously adding Meszaros and Zherdev(!),

Eminger(!) for a 1st-round draft pick, bye bye Markstrom/Carlson,

Traded for rights of Hamhuis and Nabokov even though indications were strong they wouldn't sign in Philly,

Asked Jagr and Carle to wait while he chased Suter/Parise... not surprisingly, they didn't,

Bryzgalov.


Now, don't get me wrong, I like Homer as GM, but those mistakes are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

(And... I understand it's in your nature to refute every last one of these, but they're really not up for debate, sorry.)
- Tomahawk

I think homer got off to a terrific start, but at this point he's really mediocre. This yr should be make-or-break...

Some one was agitated I posted the group picture. Like you could automatically just tell who was who.
- mayorofangrytown

For Seravalli's sake...

Like any of us still look like that.

Decided to sign Lilja to a two-year contract on first day of UFA, even though it invoked 35+ status... Lilja spent almost the balance of that 2nd year in the AHL, would have created dead space against the cap as a result if not for CBA rule changes.
- Tomahawk

It did create dead space on the cap. The over-35 contract rules trump the waiver rules.

The Flyers have an assistant GM (Barry Hanrahan) who manages all issues related to the salary cap. However, it's true the buck ultimately stops with the GM in terms of ultimate accountability.

Some one was agitated I posted the group picture. Like you could automatically just tell who was who.
- mayorofangrytown

I couldn't tell who was who, and I've been bugging you folks with my nonsense for a while now. Your secrets are all safe, sirs and ma'ams.

I think homer got off to a terrific start, but at this point he's really mediocre. This yr should be make-or-break...
- isaiah520

Yeah, clearing the old mess and working from a blank slate, he was great. If they had taken a bit more time at the beginning of the rebuild, instead of rushing to reload, I'm almost positive this team would have won a Cup by now with the quality of players that have gone through here.

Forced to waive Vaananen and Metropolit before the '09 PO's because he didn't leave enough cap room to activate Briere from IR, the team then proceeded to lose in opening round to Pens partly because they didn't have enough depth,

-Flyers & Homer have always played close to the cap. I don't blame them for spending the money to bring in the talent they have. Nor do I really blame them for not being able to see specific situations like this in the future.

Chose to draft Mathers instead of Hyka because they thought they could just sign Hyka post-camp as an undrafted UFA... turns out Hyka had to go back into the next draft (woops),

-Agreed

Decided to sign Lilja to a two-year contract on first day of UFA, even though it invoked 35+ status... Lilja spent almost the balance of that 2nd year in the AHL, would have created dead space against the cap as a result if not for CBA rule changes,

-Disagreed. It did not create issues with the big team and gave us some depth we were accused of not having before.

Signed Pronger to his back-diving extension not realizing that 35+ status kicked in when the contract came into effect, not when the contract was actually signed (Pronger was still 34 at the time),

-Agreed

Pre-emptively handed Lupul, Carter, Richards and JvR big-$ extensions, and then proceeded to trade all of them shortly thereafter due to (in part) cap concerns,

-Disagreed. All of these contracts/players were moved in good deals that those players earned, or were given based on future projections. But each one of those deals kept those players happy and in the fold until they were traded for Pronger, Coots(pick), Voracek, Both Schenns, and Simmonds. Who the hell cares how much those contracts were for? Heck as they are being paid now by other teams, I wish they were bigger.

Didn't leave enough cap room to re-sign Upshall, dealt him for Carcillo(!),

-Based on the other players we signed, There wasn't enough cap room period.

Forced to dump Gagne for worse than nothing (had to take Matt Walker) because he they were desperate to shed salary after previously adding Meszaros and Zherdev(!),

-Agreed, to a point. I still think Homer let Gags tie his hands when he moved him, saying he wanted to goto Tampa. I think Stevie Y took Homer from there.

Eminger(!) for a 1st-round draft pick, bye bye Markstrom/Carlson,

-Bad Move, but it was a chance taken. At the time we needed playing Defensmen. Hindsight was 20/20 on this one.

Traded for rights of Hamhuis and Nabokov even though indications were strong they wouldn't sign in Philly,

-Agreed, though I'm not that upset about it. More upset with those players.

Asked Jagr and Carle to wait while he chased Suter/Parise... not surprisingly, they didn't,

-Agreed.

Bryzgalov.

-I blame Snider for Bryz. Though I blame Homer for trading Bob.


Now, don't get me wrong, I like Homer as GM, but those mistakes are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

(And... I understand it's in your nature to refute every last one of these, but they're really not up for debate, sorry.)
- Tomahawk

Debated. I find most of them minor mistakes. Homer has made more good deals then bad over his tenure. He's not always right (like with Eminger) but I feel he does make very good moves overall.

I couldn't tell who was who, and I've been bugging you folks with my nonsense for a while now. Your secrets are all safe, sirs and ma'ams.
- BulliesPhan87

I couldn't care less. I'm the kneeling old guy all the way on the right with the glasses. My kid is the blonde in the middle. He doesn't look like that anymore. I do.

For Seravalli's sake...

Like any of us still look like that.
- Flyskippy

Sadly... I still do. Just a little greyer.

Yeah, clearing the old mess and working from a blank slate, he was great. If they had taken a bit more time at the beginning of the rebuild, instead of rushing to reload, I'm almost positive this team would have won a Cup by now with the quality of players that have gone through here.
- Tomahawk

I blame the cap.

Stupid cap.

As for Nabokov and Hamhuis:

The trade for Nabokov was for a conditional 7th round pick. Because he wasn't signed, there was no loss.

The trade for Hamhuis got rid of garbage defenseman Ryan Parent. When Hamhuis wouldn't come to terms, we flipped him for a 3rd round pick. Who did we get with that pick? I don't care, we got rid of Ryan Parent.

Not mistakes.

As for Nabokov and Hamhuis:

The trade for Nabokov was for a conditional 7th round pick. Because he wasn't signed, there was no loss.

The trade for Hamhuis got rid of garbage defenseman Ryan Parent. When Hamhuis wouldn't come to terms, we flipped him for a 3rd round pick. Who did we get with that pick? I don't care, we got rid of Ryan Parent.

Not mistakes.
- BulliesPhan87

If you make up for a mistake later, does it mean you never made the initial mistake in the first place?

Homer always cleans up after himself... sometimes for the better (Carter/Richards trades, Eminger for Carle, Hamhuis to PIT), but a lot of times the all little mistakes just snowball and create more problems later on.

You find other creative ways to address the issue, imo. You don't trade a superstar because of cap concerns.

-- Buyout of MAF
-- Finding better/cheap bottom six forwards and defensemen
-- Draft better
-- Creative trades
- bradleyc4

Dupuis - Crosby - college dropout
Kunitz - Malkin - Bennett
high school kid - meth addict - Jay Rosehill
Mario Lemieux's hands - Billy Tibbets - Chris Simon

Letang - Lilja
Rathje - Modry
Baumgartner - Orpik

Miller-esque goalie
Rily Cote

Cap space after extensions - $6.74

As for Nabokov and Hamhuis:

The trade for Nabokov was for a conditional 7th round pick. Because he wasn't signed, there was no loss.

The trade for Hamhuis got rid of garbage defenseman Ryan Parent. When Hamhuis wouldn't come to terms, we flipped him for a 3rd round pick. Who did we get with that pick? I don't care, we got rid of Ryan Parent.

Not mistakes.
- BulliesPhan87

The pick was used to acquire the rights to Bryzgalov

If you make up for a mistake later, does it mean you never made the initial mistake in the first place?
- Tomahawk

I don't see either as being a mistake to begin with. Trading Ryan Parent for a thing at that point was essentially getting that thing for free. And with Nabokov, there was literally no price paid.

sometimes for the better (Carter/Richards trades, Eminger for Carle, Hamhuis to PIT), but a lot of times the little mistakes just snowball and create more problems later on.
- Tomahawk

I still disagree completely that Lupul, Carter, Richards, and JVR extensions were mistakes. The cap hits on those players are fair value, in my opinion. That they were traded does not inherently mean they were bad contracts, and that we got the value back that we did tells me they were in fact worth it.

The pick was used to acquire the rights to Bryzgalov
- bradleyc4

Well, at least we got rid of Parent.