how much do you know on him Mr. Expert of everything?

Its not too much. Giving up a sophomore whos a solid 2 way player, an 11th pick and a future #4 dman for IMMEDIATE d help for the forseeable future

it is absolutely not too much for Shattenkirk. Not at all. We dont have a top 10 pick, yes a good player will still be there but that is NOT too much for Shattenkirk.
- FLYERSROCK!

I wouldn't pay that price either (and I like Shatty).

homer has a masters in zeitgeist studies
- isaiah520

I actually blame Snider more. I think he was pushing the Carter/Richards moves as well the the obvious pressure he brought to bear in the Bryzgalov signing.

I think that Holmgren, left to his own devices, would be more of a developmental guy, and more patient. That's his background, and what he enjoys is the scouting aspect of the game.

The bottom line in my opinion, that for some, the advanced stats are way overused and relied upon. And given more weight then actually watching the game, and the players play. Some of it is very useful. But a lot of is just flawed math formulas that tell lies.
- MJL

::Leightly re-opens can of worms::

The advanced stat formulas aren't flawed, and the numbers, in and of themselves, don't lie about anything. It's all about how people perceive and choose to use the information that can make it either a relevent and insightful tool or one that is being applied improperly or given too much weight etc.

Almost any stat can be portrayed by someone as something it is not...you can use your own knowledge and/or research to sniff out bullcrud. Like when someone looks at plus/minus as the be all and end all...um, no, we know that it's not to be used to compare players from different teams, yet it can have (more) relevancy releative to others on the team. Advanced stats are just another layer, another set of measurements, labeled by some dude who probably didn't even know the ideal application for each stat when he came up with them. Don't read too much into the label and how some people might (incorrectly) use the stats...learn about them, use them and interpret them as you see fit, or don't...but to shoot them down altogether and write them off as some sort of mysterious numbers mumbo jumbo isn't doing yourself any favors.

Maybe they can get him again
- ob18

I'm on it...

That was the genesis. And thank you for those links. Even though I read them before. I'm just trying to show how they aren't what many think they are. When I read an article by an analyst in which the topic and conclusion is based entirely on advanced statistics. I think the guy doesn't know how to watch the game and come to an accurate conclusion.
- MJL

Weren't you a proponent of that BSH article that used advanced stats to show how Carle was as good as Suter?

That's the problem. The perception of the stat is that is determines who is a good defensive player, and who isn't. And that's not what it tells you at all.
- MJL

No, that's YOUR perception of the stat...not Tomahawks...not mine...not others who researched the meaning of these stats before assuming they indicate something they don't.

I just don't want a repeat of the dismantling of the young core group. Yes, long term the trades of Carter & Richards will probably be beneficial. But the Flyers were serious contenders prior to those deals, and with the abject failure that the Bryzgalov experiment and injury to Pronger, they're not right now.

I just want to see them be smart about correcting that. No need to rush out and half ass it. They need to avoid overpaying-or at least severely overpaying-for a Edler/Yandle/Johnson/Shattenkirk level guy. If they do go whole hog, it needs to be for an elite guy.

Otherwise, I'd try a short term reclamation project(Ryan Whitney, Jamie McBain) or see if I could land a young guy with good mobility, such as a Rafe Diaz or Rundblad, so long as the price is right and roll with Erik Gustafsson taking a larger role.
- Jsaquella

do you think that gustafsson could grow into the long term answer on the back end? i saw some flashes of some potential that he has top 6 material in him, but i wonder about his ceiling. i do think that this team is ultimately going to need to make a move for a defender to reach its full potential.
i think it will have to be for a type on that first list that you mentioned, as there just arent enough of those "whole hog types" that approach even being remotely available.

Carter get cut bad? He's still a punk though.

do you think that gustafsson could grow into the long term answer on the back end? i saw some flashes of some potential that he has top 6 material in him, but i wonder about his ceiling. i do think that this team is ultimately going to need to make a move for a defender to reach its full potential.
i think it will have to be for a type on that first list that you mentioned, as there just arent enough of those "whole hog types" that approach even being remotely available.
- stayinthefnnet

Before his recall this year, I had him pegged as a good 5th defenseman, who could give you a solid 15 minutes a night and play 2 pair PP.

But he played very well last year, and was arguably Sweden's best defenseman in the Worlds. He's a small dude, who will need to add strength and avoid injuries. That's been a bit of an issue with him thus far as a pro.

I think he could well be a very capable, second pair puck mover.

I actually blame Snider more. I think he was pushing the Carter/Richards moves as well the the obvious pressure he brought to bear in the Bryzgalov signing.

I think that Holmgren, left to his own devices, would be more of a developmental guy, and more patient. That's his background, and what he enjoys is the scouting aspect of the game.
- Jsaquella

they threw a lot of assets into the pronger deal w/o a solid plan in goal. had they been settled there or at least shored up more than the emery gamble, it would have made more sense. it seems to be a consistent pattern whether ed is in his ear or not.

they threw a lot of assets into the pronger deal w/o a solid plan in goal. had they been settled there or at least shored up more than the emery gamble, it would have made more sense. it seems to be a consistent pattern whether ed is in his ear or not.
- isaiah520

They probably failed to expect Emery to develop necrosis and be done for the year in December. Had he not had his condition, who knows?

Bah, Carter could have broken Keith's hand with that swing...he got a dose of his own medicine. And lucky for him it wasn't a penalty.

Before his recall this year, I had him pegged as a good 5th defenseman, who could give you a solid 15 minutes a night and play 2 pair PP.

But he played very well last year, and was arguably Sweden's best defenseman in the Worlds. He's a small dude, who will need to add strength and avoid injuries. That's been a bit of an issue with him thus far as a pro.

I think he could well be a very capable, second pair puck mover.
- Jsaquella

while not a guarantee, that is definitely a reasonable assessment. assuming he reaches that by as early as this year, does that internal growth satisfy the need for an additional defenseman in your eyes?

Would teams be more inclined to use the buy out option this offseason so not risk a player being injured seriously during the season making them ineligible to buy out next summer.

The parts of advance stats that I think are very useful, is O and D Zone starts. And how they adjust some number such as A/60. It makes it more standardized.
- MJL

There are a lot of other useful stats if you'd take the time to understand each one and what they really measure versus the label they might have I'm sure you'd find some interesting stuff...or hey, don't...but why do you have to insult the intelligence of others who know about and use these stats in their well thought out posts by saying most of it (the ones you don't like or understand) is lies based on flawed formuals.

Basically, rather than be open and do more research, you're basically trying to insult certain people and get the upper hand by denegrating the information source upon which they may have formed some of their opinions. Ironically, you're doing little more than showing your own ignorance and thick headedness, which isn't becoming of someone who holds himself out to be a student of the game (except prospects).

They probably failed to expect Emery to develop necrosis and be done for the year in December. Had he not had his condition, who knows?
- Jsaquella

point is, he was an unproven commodity at that point, coming from russia w/ a questionable rep, on the cheap. not like everything's set and pronger's the last piece. kills me that he went back to leighton and niemi was scooped up after the arb fail.

oh well, that's life

Wow, no D in the zip code on that Bickell goal.

while not a guarantee, that is definitely a reasonable assessment. assuming he reaches that by as early as this year, does that internal growth satisfy the need for an additional defenseman in your eyes?
- stayinthefnnet

It does to a degree, but Kimmo Timonen will need to be replaced soon, as well. Which means that even if Gustafsson emerges, they'll still have a need.

point is, he was an unproven commodity at that point, coming from russia w/ a questionable rep, on the cheap. not like everything's set and pronger's the last piece. kills me that he went back to leighton and niemi was scooped up after the arb fail.

oh well, that's life
- isaiah520

He was also just a couple years removed from a good playoff run that saw him help his team to the SCF in 2007.

The Leighton redux was awful. No question.

I would not touch Whitney with a 10' pole. He is a huge injury risk (just what we don't need another of) and was not good enough to crack a Oiler lineup. He would be a huge gamble whereas Streit would be a good pick. Bottom line is you usually get what you pay for.
- flyerdude17

Streit would help bridge the gap post Timonen, in terms of offensive skills and PP, but only for a year or two at best. As others have said, I doubt he would be looking for a 1-3 yr deal...it's his last go, so probably looking for 5 yrs 5+ mil...no thanks.

I just don't want a repeat of the dismantling of the young core group. Yes, long term the trades of Carter & Richards will probably be beneficial. But the Flyers were serious contenders prior to those deals, and with the abject failure that the Bryzgalov experiment and injury to Pronger, they're not right now.

I just want to see them be smart about correcting that. No need to rush out and half ass it. They need to avoid overpaying-or at least severely overpaying-for a Edler/Yandle/Johnson/Shattenkirk level guy. If they do go whole hog, it needs to be for an elite guy.

Otherwise, I'd try a short term reclamation project(Ryan Whitney, Jamie McBain) or see if I could land a young guy with good mobility, such as a Rafe Diaz or Rundblad, so long as the price is right and roll with Erik Gustafsson taking a larger role.
- Jsaquella

I don't see how any of those players in the last paragraph help the Flyers. None of them are likely ever going to be a top pair puck mover. That's the need.

Bah, Carter could have broken Keith's hand with that swing...he got a dose of his own medicine. And lucky for him it wasn't a penalty.
- wolfhounds

There was little force behind what Carter did. And there was no danger of breaking his hand. I don't think Keith meant to hit him in the face, but it was a one handed swing of the stick, that was very dangerous.

Would teams be more inclined to use the buy out option this offseason so not risk a player being injured seriously during the season making them ineligible to buy out next summer.
- ravishingone

If they want the guy off the team bad enough that they're worrying if they'll get injured they should just buy them out now.

Streit would help bridge the gap post Timonen, in terms of offensive skills and PP, but only for a year or two at best. As others have said, I doubt he would be looking for a 1-3 yr deal...it's his last go, so probably looking for 5 yrs 5+ mil...no thanks.
- exlund

I would rather try and sign Gonchar for a year if he wants to continue to play as a short-term solution if they don't want to trade any of the young forwards.

I don't see how any of those players in the last paragraph help the Flyers. None of them are likely ever going to be a top pair puck mover. That's the need.
- MJL

I disagree. They do need a top pair puck mover with mobility. But they could use more mobility and guys who can move the puck, either with a pass or by skating, throughout the line-up.

Rather than overpaying for an Edler, it might be more productive to go the reclamation project route, or try a younger guy who could eventually be a part of the puzzle in the future.