Yup, can't wait to see them getting blasted for not moving up and/or drafting somebody who can play now.
- ob18

Even if they draft Pulock and Hagg this year, they'll still need to trade for or sign Timonen's replacement next summer

It will be for pretty much anyone they draft this year, too.

I'm not against the Flyers drafting defensemen. I'm against stupidity. A lot of the same people screaming for drafting defensemen are the ones that weren't willing to wait for JvR.
- Jsaquella

Do you mean wait for JVR to develop here?

My thing with JVR was always that his work ethic was so inconsistent. The fact that his d-game really needed work and he didnt drive the net consistently enough. I would have been cool with him here, but when they gave him the big contract that basically had him pegged as a top player, I was iffy.

The got a hot streak in the playoffs for a short time. Then the organization decides to give him a big contract, because they creamed their pants.

Hindsight at the end of it all, but I hope they learned to not give out big money so fast, and not to players that run so hot and cold. They need to better evaluate who their top guys will be, and not put that on players who aren't those kind of players.

Perfect example is Carter and Richards.

BIll's write-up on the timeline of Bob's career here sums up my issues with this organization perfectly. THey bring in a young goalie, tout him up to be something more than what 98% of teams in the league would have done (play him in the AHL to condition him to length of schedule). He burns out, Lavy loses faith in his "no. 1" guy after 1 playoff game. Snider come out of the mothballs to gripe about the "carousel" that didn't exist prior to that playoff series.

Ironically, he had no problem with the "carousel" in 2010, or giving a flash in the pan goalie 2 million a year after he lets in the worst goal I've seen to end a series in my life, possibly ever.

I was pissed when they traded him, because in less than 24 months Bob went from a project, to the answer in goal, to the doghouse, to second fiddle to a guy who has been more inconsistent than bob ever was.
- the deaninator

I would agree. They should of handled Bobrovsky better. I don't know if he would be the answer or not but he had time to develop still.

Well you can have the opinion that they should be a contender every year, and that making the playoffs is not good enough. But that's jut looking at it without looking at all the factors. And who knows what would've happened if they went with Bobrovsky.
- MJL

What factors? I want them to be contenders but contenders that are way more consistent.

The past 20 years they have been "contenders" but every playoffs season has always started with a goalie issue, or lack of offense, or defense liabilities. I want teams that can win consistently, and that's not going to happen when you constantly have to overpay for positions when you could remedy that by being better at scouting and developing.

Look a the salaries on the back end they have to pay next year. Tell me developing defense that are anything above third pairing players wouldn't help them in other areas of need as well.

Even if they draft Pulock and Hagg this year, they'll still need to trade for or sign Timonen's replacement next summer
- Jsaquella

I agree

Do you mean wait for JVR to develop here?

My thing with JVR was always that his work ethic was so inconsistent. The fact that his d-game really needed work and he didnt drive the net consistently enough. I would have been cool with him here, but when they gave him the big contract that basically had him pegged as a top player, I was iffy.

The got a hot streak in the playoffs for a short time. Then the organization decides to give him a big contract, because they creamed their pants.

Hindsight at the end of it all, but I hope they learned to not give out big money so fast, and not to players that run so hot and cold. They need to better evaluate who their top guys will be, and not put that on players who aren't those kind of players.

Perfect example is Carter and Richards.
- flyer_nutter

Usually young players do run hot and cold. The big second contract is how the NHL operates. If they had drafted a defenseman instead of JvR, he likely would have gotten that big second contract.

Carter and Richards being top players helped carry them to an ECF berth in 2008 and a SCF berth in 2010(with Leighton & Boucher in net and a horrid third D-pair).

To get back to JvR, he's been one of the Leafs' best players this year and has been their best forward in the playoffs. I like Luke Schenn, but they did pay a big price for him.

Even if they draft Pulock and Hagg this year, they'll still need to trade for or sign Timonen's replacement next summer
- Jsaquella

With Vancouver looking to shake things up it would be ideal to see what's available.

Whoever they draft probably wont be a factor for a few years at best.
- stveshdy

For sure.

At the end of everything, they are where they are for a reason.

Imho a lot of it boils down to not being able to find and develop their own talent on the blue line. Relying far too much on FA and trading.

They have tried to draft D but for some reason other teams continously seem to find players in later rounds here, or there. The Flyers lack here big time. Its not good enough to just say they tried, to me.

The Flyers waited too long to bring in quality youth for that back end. They are paying the price. They failed to do it via FA and trades and put all their hopes in that. They tried to draft D, but when that doesnt work out for as long as it has (hell even before I was a fan in '97), maybe its time to look at scouting and development.

With Vancouver looking to shake things up it would be ideal to see what's available.
- stveshdy

We need to shed salary & so do they you'd need to make multiple moves

We need to shed salary & so do they you'd need to make multiple moves
- ob18

Flyers can shed salary by buying out Briere and Bryz.

I don't know "who" Vancouver is willing to move but I would find out.

Exactly. I think Boston had kind of a similar mindset as the Flyers, and living in the past or being able to essentially build a quality defense by trading and FA.
- flyer_nutter

They just have a similar comparative advantage in drafting forwards... now, if they had said OK, we don't need any more forwards, we already have Bergeron and Krejci, etc and started picking for need, they might have passed on Kessel, Marchand, Lucic, Seguin etc. The only reason they have Hamilton now is because they had a Kessel to trade in the first place, and they got Kaberle because they had Colborne.

That's kind of the argument for BAP and working your comparative advantage, despite apparent current/future need.

For sure.

At the end of everything, they are where they are for a reason.

Imho a lot of it boils down to not being able to find and develop their own talent on the blue line. Relying far too much on FA and trading.

They have tried to draft D but for some reason other teams continously seem to find players in later rounds here, or there. The Flyers lack here big time. Its not good enough to just say they tried, to me.

The Flyers waited too long to bring in quality youth for that back end. They are paying the price. They failed to do it via FA and trades and put all their hopes in that. They tried to draft D, but when that doesnt work out for as long as it has (hell even before I was a fan in '97), maybe its time to look at scouting and development.
- flyer_nutter

Have to play a style that supports the strength of your team. Trying to play run and gun hockey with the current defensive core isn't smart.

With Vancouver looking to shake things up it would be ideal to see what's available.
- stveshdy

Both teams have cap issues. Tht said, both are highly likely to use at least one CBO

Flyers can shed salary by buying out Briere and Bryz.

I don't know "who" Vancouver is willing to move but I would find out.
- stveshdy

You will need more to keep flexibility now and going forward you do want to keep Giroux, Schenn, Coots, & if possible Read or at least of them

Usually young players do run hot and cold. The big second contract is how the NHL operates. If they had drafted a defenseman instead of JvR, he likely would have gotten that big second contract.

Carter and Richards being top players helped carry them to an ECF berth in 2008 and a SCF berth in 2010(with Leighton & Boucher in net and a horrid third D-pair).

To get back to JvR, he's been one of the Leafs' best players this year and has been their best forward in the playoffs. I like Luke Schenn, but they did pay a big price for him.
- Jsaquella

I think they put too much on Carter and Richards. They were good pieces but I think have shined most in LA because they are sorrounded by a lot of other stars. LA imo also plays the game well, in terms of really building their offense on a punishing cycle forecheck.

Anyway with JVR, basically what I was saying is that I think the organization gave him too big of a contract for when it was done. Thats all done though. My point is I just want them to not give out such big contracts so soon to players. Who knows, but I think JVR could have been signed for less.

Again though, thats all in the past. For the future, I'd also really like them to focus on the defensive game of forwards they draft or bring in via trade/FA. Too many come in with questionable defensive games to begin with.

You will need more to keep flexibility now and going forward you do want to keep Giroux, Schenn, Coots, & if possible Read or at least of them
- ob18

Agreed.

However, they do lose Timonen and Mez contracts after next year. That helps the Flyers also.

Have to play a style that supports the strength of your team. Trying to play run and gun hockey with the current defensive core isn't smart.
- stveshdy

Its not, but at the same time you have to have a consistent organization philosophy to how you want to team to play, and how to build it.

Not just sign a bunch of guys, and throw them together.

I think the Flyers rolled into this season with the D they did because they were forced to. Homer really went hard after Suter and Weber.

I think they put too much on Carter and Richards. They were good pieces but I think have shined most in LA because they are sorrounded by a lot of other stars. LA imo also plays the game well, in terms of really building their offense on a punishing cycle forecheck.

Anyway with JVR, basically what I was saying is that I think the organization gave him too big of a contract for when it was done. Thats all done though. My point is I just want them to not give out such big contracts so soon to players. Who knows, but I think JVR could have been signed for less.

Again though, thats all in the past. For the future, I'd also really like them to focus on the defensive game of forwards they draft or bring in via trade/FA. Too many come in with questionable defensive games to begin with.
- flyer_nutter

JvR probably could have been signed for less, but they took the long view, that if he exploded and became the player they felt he could be, then they'd save money by adding additional years-as well as delay his UFA status for a couple years.


Carter and Richards shined here. They won in LA because of Quick and the excellent team defense.

Both teams have cap issues. Tht said, both are highly likely to use at least one CBO
- Jsaquella

Vancouver's almost assuredly going to use both their CBO's if they can't find takers for both Ballard and Booth.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Gillis tries to pull a Richards/Carter type of deal to get younger, bigger and cheaper.

Hartnell had some instant chemistry w/ the Sedins... too bad that's a pipe dream for us.

They just have a similar comparative advantage in drafting forwards... now, if they had said OK, we don't need any more forwards, we already have Bergeron and Krejci, etc and started picking for need, they might have passed on Kessel, Marchand, Lucic, Seguin etc. The only reason they have Hamilton now is because they had a Kessel to trade in the first place, and they got Kaberle because they had Colborne.

That's kind of the argument for BAP and working your comparative advantage, despite apparent current/future need.
- Tomahawk

Haha I wont go into BAP, I've done it a few times on here, we have our own thoughts in the end.

The only thing I'd say with BAP is that if two players are similar in evaluation by scouts, I think the long term organizational need has to be looked at. The bigger thing being that BAP is subjective to the team and scouting department. In later rounds the BAP in the Flyers mind, especially in terms of D hasnt really worked out too well for them. It has a hell of a lot more for other teams.

Its not, but at the same time you have to have a consistent organization philosophy to how you want to team to play, and how to build it.

Not just sign a bunch of guys, and throw them together.

I think the Flyers rolled into this season with the D they did because they were forced to. Homer really went hard after Suter and Weber.
- flyer_nutter

I give Holmgren credit for trying to land those guys but the fact remains he didn't get either and the blue-line got worse from the previous year.

Vancouver's almost assuredly going to use both their CBO's if they can't find takers for both Ballard and Booth.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Gillis tries to pull a Richards/Carter type of deal to get younger, bigger and cheaper.

Hartnell had some instant chemistry w/ the Sedins... too bad that's a pipe dream for us.
- Tomahawk

Imagine a trade built around Hartnell & Edler.

Imagine a trade built around Hartnell & Edler.
- Jsaquella

That would be fantastic.

JvR probably could have been signed for less, but they took the long view, that if he exploded and became the player they felt he could be, then they'd save money by adding additional years-as well as delay his UFA status for a couple years.


Carter and Richards shined here. They won in LA because of Quick and the excellent team defense.
- Jsaquella

For sure. I think being sorrounded by Brown, Doughty, Quick and Kopitar really helped take some of the heat off of them. LA also has/had a much more physically dominating team.

Do you believe the Flyers focus too much on the hot streaks of players, and give out too big/lengthy contracts too soon when it could probably be avoided? Thats all Im getting at in the end.

The only thing I'd say with BAP is that if two players are similar in evaluation by scouts, I think the long term organizational need has to be looked at.
- flyer_nutter

All things being equal, of course, need can enter the equation. I was hoping they'd take Hamilton even when Couturier fell into their laps, and I'm still questioning that decision, but Couturier's still going to be a hell of a player, or a hell of a trade chip, either way.