At least they've got a comparative advantage in something... some scouting groups have picked consistently high in the draft and still turn out nothing but garbage.
- Tomahawk

It is hard to say theyre terrible at drafting effective D men. When you never draft them in the first three rounds your really cant expect that from them.

Arguing that they never take Dmen in the first two rounds and it severely hurts the team in the long run is a stance I'll gladly stand behind though.

I don't care they drafted 4 dmen last year. They were all round 4 or later, and Ghost is a fairly longshot to even be a 3rd pair guy in this league.

Hell, Gus isn't even a top 3 D prospect on many teams and he's easily the number 1 here.

I have to say, at this point it's not good enough to just be a playoff team. They've been a playoff team every year of my existence except 6 years. It's gotten them nothing.
The eagles had the same philosophy, but people always talk about "superbowl or bust". Jeff Lurey would be hung if he came out and talked about trying hard, and its all voodoo.
I'm tired of seeing the win now mentality. Look at how many teams decided to actually build their teams. I'm more than willing to burn a couple years now if it means building a team like chicago or boston that has depth, youth, and veterans sprinkled in for final touches.

It all starts with Snider. He's the one who keeps making left hand turns instead of staying the course.
- the deaninator

The Flyers imo made that move when they decided to trade players and get younger. The process of rebuilding started last season but the team played well enough to make the playoffs. This year the team wasn't as fortunate and it may take time to be a legit contender.

The organization has to make a decision on the direction and that starts with buyout(s). Will see what moves they make. They have talent but they need to utilize it and determine what the strengths and weaknesses are of this team.
- stveshdy

Right on.

I just threw it at the end into my last post, but I think what is huge for this crew is the star forwards. The guys paid the big money, or the kids who are expected to help lead the team offensively as they develop...

Need to get a hell of a lot better defensively to begin with. Whether that can be solved simply by coaching, I really hope so. Where some of my doubts lie is the Flyers tend to love to draft talent. Yet overvalue it at times, give it a huge contract, and expect it to lead the team.

When at the end of it, those guys they hang the superman capes on, realistically cant match those expectations consistently.

It is hard to say theyre terrible at drafting effective D men. When you never draft them in the first three rounds your really cant expect that from them.

Arguing that they never take Dmen in the first two rounds and it severely hurts the team in the long run is a stance I'll gladly stand behind though.

I don't care they drafted 4 dmen last year. They were all round 4 or later, and Ghost is a fairly longshot to even be a 3rd pair guy in this league.

Hell, Gus isn't even a top 3 D prospect on many teams and he's easily the number 1 here.
- hereticpride

The Flyers traded up not that long ago to take Kevin Marshall in the 2nd round. They drafted Sbisa in the first round.

I have to say, at this point it's not good enough to just be a playoff team. They've been a playoff team every year of my existence except 6 years. It's gotten them nothing.
The eagles had the same philosophy, but people always talk about "superbowl or bust". Jeff Lurey would be hung if he came out and talked about trying hard, and its all voodoo.
I'm tired of seeing the win now mentality. Look at how many teams decided to actually build their teams. I'm more than willing to burn a couple years now if it means building a team like chicago or boston that has depth, youth, and veterans sprinkled in for final touches.

It all starts with Snider. He's the one who keeps making left hand turns instead of staying the course.
- the deaninator

When you make a radical change and trade two top player for young assets, it has to be understood that it's going to take some time. The team with those players went to the Finals in 2010. They then decide to make big changes. I don't think it's unreasonable to have lowered expectations in that situation.

I have to say, at this point it's not good enough to just be a playoff team. They've been a playoff team every year of my existence except 6 years. It's gotten them nothing.
The eagles had the same philosophy, but people always talk about "superbowl or bust". Jeff Lurey would be hung if he came out and talked about trying hard, and its all voodoo.
I'm tired of seeing the win now mentality. Look at how many teams decided to actually build their teams. I'm more than willing to burn a couple years now if it means building a team like chicago or boston that has depth, youth, and veterans sprinkled in for final touches.

It all starts with Snider. He's the one who keeps making left hand turns instead of staying the course.
- the deaninator

Great post, and one that falls in line where most of my thoughts head.

They need to build a team that is consistently good for a few years. Consistently elite for a longer term. Not one that runs so hot and cold, and relies on game 82 shootouts to even make it to the playoffs.

Properly build it, and dont go all crazy just because a player has a break out season. Patience, and proper realistic evaluation of players.

The Flyers traded up not that long ago to take Kevin Marshall in the 2nd round. They drafted Sbisa in the first round.
- MJL

Ok, never drafts D men high and develops them

The Flyers imo made that move when they decided to trade players and get younger. The process of rebuilding started last season but the team played well enough to make the playoffs. This year the team wasn't as fortunate and it may take time to be a legit contender.
- stveshdy

I'm fine with that, but I wouldn't mind seeing them draft better, and actually have a chance at a championship. 2004 was their year, and I can honestly say trading Weinrich for a bag of pucks cost them the cup that year.

Buy out briere and bryz this summer and I'll truly believe they are in rebuild mode.

When you make a radical change and trade two top player for young assets, it has to be understood that it's going to take some time. The team with those players went to the Finals in 2010. They then decide to make big changes. I don't think it's unreasonable to have lowered expectations in that situation.
- MJL

Agreed. The Flyers made that change two seasons ago. The first year they played well and made the playoffs this season it didn't happen. Still have young players who are developing. Just need to play better all around hockey.

For sure. They arent the worst thing in the world.

However in a salary cap era, that I dont think they have caught up to just how important building a complete team through the draft is. Or getting more than forwards out of the draft.

They are being taught it now, the hard way.
- flyer_nutter

It takes a combination of good scouting, good development, savvy moves and a lot of good fortune.

Take Boston for example... their entire blueline, outside of Hamilton, is built from savvy trades and signings. They stumbled into Tim Thomas through injury, and they somehow got JFJ to give them Rask for Andrew Freakin Raycroft. Their draft history on D and G looks like the Flyers'... Lars Jonson, Boynton, Shoanne Morrison, Hannu Toivonen, Matt Lashoff... etc. Without their skill at plucking forwards in the draft, they wouldn't have the $ and assets to add those pieces on the back end.

For sure. They arent the worst thing in the world.

However in a salary cap era, that I dont think they have caught up to just how important building a complete team through the draft is. Or getting more than forwards out of the draft.

They are being taught it now, the hard way.
- flyer_nutter

This is some of what bothers me. The overreactions. The Flyers are a successful franchise, who most years puts a quality team on the ice, that makes the playoffs. If you want to look at the defense. Let's look at the defense that this team has iced the last 5 Seasons. One Season where it came up short, and it's panic.

It is hard to say theyre terrible at drafting effective D men. When you never draft them in the first three rounds your really cant expect that from them.

Arguing that they never take Dmen in the first two rounds and it severely hurts the team in the long run is a stance I'll gladly stand behind though.

I don't care they drafted 4 dmen last year. They were all round 4 or later, and Ghost is a fairly longshot to even be a 3rd pair guy in this league.

Hell, Gus isn't even a top 3 D prospect on many teams and he's easily the number 1 here.
- hereticpride

Thats my thing. Who the hell cares if they drafted a d-man at every selection.

If none of them pans out, like it has been for years there is a problem in player/talent evaluation.

Or when they find a guy, they aren't patient, or use him on the 4th line wing (Sbisa). Holmgren is being taught a really big lesson that trading to BUILD a quality defense, or hoping on FA will not work anymore.

It is hard to say theyre terrible at drafting effective D men. When you never draft them in the first three rounds your really cant expect that from them.

Arguing that they never take Dmen in the first two rounds and it severely hurts the team in the long run is a stance I'll gladly stand behind though.

I don't care they drafted 4 dmen last year. They were all round 4 or later, and Ghost is a fairly longshot to even be a 3rd pair guy in this league.

Hell, Gus isn't even a top 3 D prospect on many teams and he's easily the number 1 here.
- hereticpride

Actually Gostisbehere was a 3rd rounder, and they traded for Mark Alt, a former second rounder.

Agreed. The Flyers made that change two seasons ago. The first year they played well and made the playoffs this season it didn't happen. Still have young players who are developing. Just need to play better all around hockey.
- stveshdy

There's no doubt that they cam up short this Season. Should've been a playoff team. But it's not the end of the World.

I'm fine with that, but I wouldn't mind seeing them draft better, and actually have a chance at a championship. 2004 was their year, and I can honestly say trading Weinrich for a bag of pucks cost them the cup that year.

Buy out briere and bryz this summer and I'll truly believe they are in rebuild mode.
- the deaninator[/quote]

I wouldn't have any issue with making that move.

When you make a radical change and trade two top player for young assets, it has to be understood that it's going to take some time. The team with those players went to the Finals in 2010. They then decide to make big changes. I don't think it's unreasonable to have lowered expectations in that situation.
- MJL

I didn't think they were going to win that year at all. My opinion didn't change this year either.
I wasn't a fan of either of those guys personally, but I'm not stupid.
I wasn't the one who demanded a top-flight goalie either. I'm one that wanted to go with Bobrovsky.

Actually Gostisbehere was a 3rd rounder, and they traded for Mark Alt, a former second rounder.
- Jsaquella

Jury will be out on both for sometime

I didn't think they were going to win that year at all. My opinion didn't change this year either.
I wasn't a fan of either of those guys personally, but I'm not stupid.
I wasn't the one who demanded a top-flight goalie either. I'm one that wanted to go with Bobrovsky.
- the deaninator

I do feel like they pulled the plug early on Bobrovsky. However, if your going to sign a player like Bryz to that kind of contract it really didn't make sense to hold on to Bobrovsky. With the "buyouts" available it would of made more sense to keep him (in hindsight).

It takes a combination of good scouting, good development, savvy moves and a lot of good fortune.

Take Boston for example... there entire blueline, outside of Hamilton, is built from savvy trades and signings. They stumbled into Tim Thomas through injury, and they somehow got JFJ to give them Rask for Andrew Freakin Raycroft. Their draft history on D and G looks like the Flyers'... Lars Jonson, Boynton, Shoanne Morrison, Hannu Toivonen, Matt Lashoff... etc. Without their skill at plucking forwards in the draft, they wouldn't have the $ and assets to add those pieces on the back end.
- Tomahawk

Exactly. I think Boston had kind of a similar mindset as the Flyers, and living in the past or being able to essentially build a quality defense by trading and FA.

With choosing Hamilton, they at the very least have a potential guy to hopefully replace some of the #1d-man qualities that Chara brings.

The Flyers knew even when bringing in Pronger that he wouldnt be around for too long. They also knew the same with Timonen at that time.

Since then how have they tried to bring in youth, and talented youth to the back end? Luke Schenn? That seems to be a good one, but you cant win the game with one dimensional d-men. This coming from a huge fan of Luke, and defensive D.

I didn't think they were going to win that year at all. My opinion didn't change this year either.
I wasn't a fan of either of those guys personally, but I'm not stupid.
I wasn't the one who demanded a top-flight goalie either. I'm one that wanted to go with Bobrovsky.
- the deaninator

Well you can have the opinion that they should be a contender every year, and that making the playoffs is not good enough. But that's jut looking at it without looking at all the factors. And who knows what would've happened if they went with Bobrovsky.

Jury will be out on both for sometime
- ob18

It will be for pretty much anyone they draft this year, too.

I'm not against the Flyers drafting defensemen. I'm against stupidity. A lot of the same people screaming for drafting defensemen are the ones that weren't willing to wait for JvR.

Exactly. I think Boston had kind of a similar mindset as the Flyers, and living in the past or being able to essentially build a quality defense by trading and FA.

With choosing Hamilton, they at the very least have a potential guy to hopefully replace some of the #1d-man qualities that Chara brings.

The Flyers knew even when bringing in Pronger that he wouldnt be around for too long. They also knew the same with Timonen at that time.

Since then how have they tried to bring in youth, and talented youth to the back end? Luke Schenn? That seems to be a good one, but you cant win the game with one dimensional d-men. This coming from a huge fan of Luke, and defensive D.
- flyer_nutter

Quite the contrary. Defenseman like Luke Schenn are essential to winning. It takes a mixture of defenseman.

I do feel like they pulled the plug early on Bobrovsky. However, if your going to sign a player like Bryz to that kind of contract it really didn't make sense to hold on to Bobrovsky. With the "buyouts" available it would of made more sense to keep him (in hindsight).
- stveshdy

BIll's write-up on the timeline of Bob's career here sums up my issues with this organization perfectly. THey bring in a young goalie, tout him up to be something more than what 98% of teams in the league would have done (play him in the AHL to condition him to length of schedule). He burns out, Lavy loses faith in his "no. 1" guy after 1 playoff game. Snider come out of the mothballs to gripe about the "carousel" that didn't exist prior to that playoff series.

Ironically, he had no problem with the "carousel" in 2010, or giving a flash in the pan goalie 2 million a year after he lets in the worst goal I've seen to end a series in my life, possibly ever.

I was pissed when they traded him, because in less than 24 months Bob went from a project, to the answer in goal, to the doghouse, to second fiddle to a guy who has been more inconsistent than bob ever was.

It will be for pretty much anyone they draft this year, too.

I'm not against the Flyers drafting defensemen. I'm against stupidity. A lot of the same people screaming for drafting defensemen are the ones that weren't willing to wait for JvR.
- Jsaquella

Yup, can't wait to see them getting blasted for not moving up and/or drafting somebody who can play now.

It will be for pretty much anyone they draft this year, too.

I'm not against the Flyers drafting defensemen. I'm against stupidity. A lot of the same people screaming for drafting defensemen are the ones that weren't willing to wait for JvR.
- Jsaquella

Whoever they draft probably wont be a factor for a few years at best.