NotBeing argumentative but yeah I was laughed at. I was told you don't trade a possible future selke trophy winner for subban. I would make that trade today even if coots won the selke this year. I value Dmen like subban. More than selke winner any day of the week.
- SMS4016

I think you're mistaking someone disagreeing with you, for being laughed at.

And here's the next part in my "Jake's crazy unrealistic offseason plans" series

Someone stop me if I'm being outrageous.

Step 1) Keep that #11 pick. It's good right where it is.

Step 2) Make a trade, a big trade, to acquire a pick inbetween #4 and # 7, without dealing the #11 in said trade. I was thinking (this is probably where some of you will stop me) something along the lines of Matt Read, 2013 2nd round pick, 2014 2nd round pick, 2015 1st round pick, 2015 2nd round pick. According to the article someone posted in one of the older comment boards (sorry dont have source) on the average teams have HISTORICALLY paid for draft picks in draft pick for draft pick trades, a 4th overall is worth 53.4 points. This is where a bit of generalization comes in. For lack of a better way I'm going to assume we're back where we historically have always been or been around in the draft after this year, meaning our 2nd rounders will be around #40, and our 1st rounders around #20. A #20 pick is worth 22.4 points, and a #40 is worth 9.0 points. Again this i not based on value it's based on what teams have historically had to pay for draft picks. with 1 #20 and 3 #40s, 27 + 22.4 = 49.4. A few points will have to be subtracted because the picks are acouple years away, so for the sake of me being innacurate lets say these picks are worth around 45 points. Add Matt Read to this, and I'll let you be the judge of whether or not we get over 53 points, but Matt Read would need the value of a mid 2nd rounder, which I hope everyone can agree he exceeds. We can luckily replace him in the top 6 easily and sign a bigger body winger to increase size in the bottom 6 (maybe clarkson?)
Step 3) Once we have the #4-7 and the #11, we pick Nichushkin at #4-7 and Pulock at #11. We then have a future top pair defense man and future top line, do it all, big body LWer for G an Jake a couple years down the line. Luckily everyone's so young that by the time Nich and Pulock should be NHL ready, Giroux will still be approaching or will have just entered his prime.

So, on a scale from 1 to go (frank) yourself Jake, how good of a draft plan do you think this is?
- JAKEw1234

Stop. You're being outrageous.

(It was before you said where most people would stop you....soooo...)

Hypersensitivity.

"You all laughed at me when I said something more specific than the generalizations that are being bandied about now!"

"I can dish it out but not take it so I'm going to flame you via PM."

Waaa...
- Flyskippy

So much goes on behind the scenes, this thread is too deep for me to follow sometimes. Where's FF16 when you need him? At least then it was just outright accusations and name calling.

And here's the next part in my "Jake's crazy unrealistic offseason plans" series

Someone stop me if I'm being outrageous.

Step 1) Keep that #11 pick. It's good right where it is.

Step 2) Make a trade, a big trade, to acquire a pick inbetween #4 and # 7, without dealing the #11 in said trade. I was thinking (this is probably where some of you will stop me) something along the lines of Matt Read, 2013 2nd round pick, 2014 2nd round pick, 2015 1st round pick, 2015 2nd round pick. According to the article someone posted in one of the older comment boards (sorry dont have source) on the average teams have HISTORICALLY paid for draft picks in draft pick for draft pick trades, a 4th overall is worth 53.4 points. This is where a bit of generalization comes in. For lack of a better way I'm going to assume we're back where we historically have always been or been around in the draft after this year, meaning our 2nd rounders will be around #40, and our 1st rounders around #20. A #20 pick is worth 22.4 points, and a #40 is worth 9.0 points. Again this i not based on value it's based on what teams have historically had to pay for draft picks. with 1 #20 and 3 #40s, 27 + 22.4 = 49.4. A few points will have to be subtracted because the picks are acouple years away, so for the sake of me being innacurate lets say these picks are worth around 45 points. Add Matt Read to this, and I'll let you be the judge of whether or not we get over 53 points, but Matt Read would need the value of a mid 2nd rounder, which I hope everyone can agree he exceeds. We can luckily replace him in the top 6 easily and sign a bigger body winger to increase size in the bottom 6 (maybe clarkson?)
Step 3) Once we have the #4-7 and the #11, we pick Nichushkin at #4-7 and Pulock at #11. We then have a future top pair defense man and future top line, do it all, big body LWer for G an Jake a couple years down the line. Luckily everyone's so young that by the time Nich and Pulock should be NHL ready, Giroux will still be approaching or will have just entered his prime.

So, on a scale from 1 to go (frank) yourself Jake, how good of a draft plan do you think this is?
- JAKEw1234

Are we dealing in real life or in fantasy land?

My thoughts are to wait and see how the draft goes... wait and see how FA goes... wait and see how Meszy and Coburn do... and then go from there..

We could very well end up landing a guy like Pulock and wouldnt even need to go out and trade for Voynov.
- jak521

I agree with the pick. We better get a dman with the 11th pick. Unless risto nurse pullock zadirov all gone at 11. Coburn is fine to keep as London as he's nOt on top pair but mez has got to go. He's way to injury prone. I also would move grossman to help get a #1. I like him alot but everygame he hurting from block shots and whatnot. Kimmo retiring so We need more than just draft pick. Thinking for more down the line than just next year.

My preference is when folks overreact and infer what is NOT implied.
- Flyskippy

What are you implying?

This is almost as confusing as the "on the average teams have HISTORICALLY paid for draft picks in draft pick for draft pick trades, a 4th overall is worth 53.4 points." in the extra long post I ate a sandwich while reading.

And here's the next part in my "Jake's crazy unrealistic offseason plans" series

Someone stop me if I'm being outrageous.

Step 1) Keep that #11 pick. It's good right where it is.

Step 2) Make a trade, a big trade, to acquire a pick inbetween #4 and # 7, without dealing the #11 in said trade. I was thinking (this is probably where some of you will stop me) something along the lines of Matt Read, 2013 2nd round pick, 2014 2nd round pick, 2015 1st round pick, 2015 2nd round pick. According to the article someone posted in one of the older comment boards (sorry dont have source) on the average teams have HISTORICALLY paid for draft picks in draft pick for draft pick trades, a 4th overall is worth 53.4 points. This is where a bit of generalization comes in. For lack of a better way I'm going to assume we're back where we historically have always been or been around in the draft after this year, meaning our 2nd rounders will be around #40, and our 1st rounders around #20. A #20 pick is worth 22.4 points, and a #40 is worth 9.0 points. Again this i not based on value it's based on what teams have historically had to pay for draft picks. with 1 #20 and 3 #40s, 27 + 22.4 = 49.4. A few points will have to be subtracted because the picks are acouple years away, so for the sake of me being innacurate lets say these picks are worth around 45 points. Add Matt Read to this, and I'll let you be the judge of whether or not we get over 53 points, but Matt Read would need the value of a mid 2nd rounder, which I hope everyone can agree he exceeds. We can luckily replace him in the top 6 easily and sign a bigger body winger to increase size in the bottom 6 (maybe clarkson?)
Step 3) Once we have the #4-7 and the #11, we pick Nichushkin at #4-7 and Pulock at #11. We then have a future top pair defense man and future top line, do it all, big body LWer for G an Jake a couple years down the line. Luckily everyone's so young that by the time Nich and Pulock should be NHL ready, Giroux will still be approaching or will have just entered his prime.

So, on a scale from 1 to go (frank) yourself Jake, how good of a draft plan do you think this is?
- JAKEw1234

I'm really confused by this points thing.

I agree with the pick. We better get a dman with the 11th pick. Unless risto nurse pullock zadirov all gone at 11. Coburn is fine to keep as London as he's nOt on top pair but mez has got to go. He's way to injury prone. I also would move grossman to help get a #1. I like him alot but everygame he hurting from block shots and whatnot. Kimmo retiring so We need more than just draft pick. Thinking for more down the line than just next year.
- SMS4016

The Flyers should take the best player available. It doesn't have to be a defenseman. Who are you packaging with Grossmann to get a #1?

I'd think they move out other pieces to hold onto Voynov is they really had to.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, bringing up Voynov is akin to what you'd expect when other GM's bring up Coots/BSchenn up with Homer... it's more or less a no-go under most circumstances.

Alec Martinez and Nicolas Deslauriers are more realistic targets.

It's true, the Kings do have to move one or more dmen out this summer with Mitchell coming off LTIR and they have several kids they can't/won't want to send through waivers. Muzzin's bumped Martinez to the pressbox, and Deslauriers is kind of stuck in the pipeline. Either one of those guys could end up being solid second-pairing puck-movers and probably would be affordable to acquire. I'd still be interested in Ellerby as well, but Sutter seems to have taken a shine to him.

At the time of the voynov discussion I was told read was great. He's soo valuable. Was told you don't trade a player that gets 50 to 60 points, plays great pk, moves up and down the lIneup for a dman with potential. So I said if read was so great la would jump all over read a2nd and 3rd for voynov. I agree la would be stupid to make that trade. In 2 years voynov will be moRe valueable to la than doughty IMO.
- SMS4016

It's not just that. LA is set at forward for right now with Brown, Kopitar, Richards, Williams, and Carter. Also, they've got Toffoli coming up. I'm sure they'd like to add Matt Read, but they don't need to. Voynov is way more valuable to them, so some mid-round picks will not make up the difference. Read's a good player who is basically at his ceiling now. I think he is probably the best value on the team, but he's not going to bring back a potential #1/2 dman unless you package some big-ticket items with him. At the same time, I'd be hesitant to trade him in a deal involving anything less than a top-pair defenseman.

People don't feel like they need to tap into the civility they were raised with when dealing with anonymous posters on a thread. While I understand what you're talking about and try not to get involved in it, the internet pretty much unlearns all the lessons taught growing up in the school yard.

You can bet your last buck that if these discussions were face to face a completely different tenor would be set.

All that being true, this thread in particular doesn't get all that bad and the few well muscled internet giants can be ignored for the most part. There are some posters who I honestly wonder why others even engage.
- mayorofangrytown

Ummm... internet?

Ummm... internet?
- Flyskippy

So much goes on behind the scenes, this thread is too deep for me to follow sometimes. Where's FF16 when you need him? At least then it was just outright accusations and name calling.
- mayorofangrytown

I think sarcasm detection is now a skill that is lacking too. Plus self deprecating humor. I use both but they go over like a lead balloon.

I'm really confused by this points thing.
- BulliesPhan87

Essentially they took an archive of purely draft pick for draft pick trades over the past long time (20 years if im not mistaken), and I guess crunched some numbers to figure out an algorithm that could give each pick a point value from 0.0 to 100.0 (the first overall). Here's the whole chart:

I think you're mistaking someone disagreeing with you, for being laughed at.
- MJL

Oh my bad. I figured someone (not you) throwing stats at everything I post and calling me delusional would be same as laughing at me. Ex. At beginning of seasOn I said we were nuts to trade bob and go with bryz and stats thrown at me how bryz had .920 save% and a so and how was bob doing. Well fast forward to end of season and when I throw final stats back at said Person all of a sudden stats don't matter

And here's the next part in my "Jake's crazy unrealistic offseason plans" series

Someone stop me if I'm being outrageous.

Step 1) Keep that #11 pick. It's good right where it is.

Step 2) Make a trade, a big trade, to acquire a pick inbetween #4 and # 7, without dealing the #11 in said trade. I was thinking (this is probably where some of you will stop me) something along the lines of Matt Read, 2013 2nd round pick, 2014 2nd round pick, 2015 1st round pick, 2015 2nd round pick. According to the article someone posted in one of the older comment boards (sorry dont have source) on the average teams have HISTORICALLY paid for draft picks in draft pick for draft pick trades, a 4th overall is worth 53.4 points. This is where a bit of generalization comes in. For lack of a better way I'm going to assume we're back where we historically have always been or been around in the draft after this year, meaning our 2nd rounders will be around #40, and our 1st rounders around #20. A #20 pick is worth 22.4 points, and a #40 is worth 9.0 points. Again this i not based on value it's based on what teams have historically had to pay for draft picks. with 1 #20 and 3 #40s, 27 + 22.4 = 49.4. A few points will have to be subtracted because the picks are acouple years away, so for the sake of me being innacurate lets say these picks are worth around 45 points. Add Matt Read to this, and I'll let you be the judge of whether or not we get over 53 points, but Matt Read would need the value of a mid 2nd rounder, which I hope everyone can agree he exceeds. We can luckily replace him in the top 6 easily and sign a bigger body winger to increase size in the bottom 6 (maybe clarkson?)
Step 3) Once we have the #4-7 and the #11, we pick Nichushkin at #4-7 and Pulock at #11. We then have a future top pair defense man and future top line, do it all, big body LWer for G an Jake a couple years down the line. Luckily everyone's so young that by the time Nich and Pulock should be NHL ready, Giroux will still be approaching or will have just entered his prime.

So, on a scale from 1 to go (frank) yourself Jake, how good of a draft plan do you think this is?
- JAKEw1234

Umm.. Khakis.

Are we dealing in real life or in fantasy land?
- MJL

I figured youd say it wasn't realistic, but atleast tell me where it got unfeasible

(20 years if im not mistaken)
- JAKEw1234

Study was of trades between lockouts: '06-'12.

Study was of trades between lockouts: '06-'12.
- Tomahawk

oh ok

Exactly why I hate him. He's very immature and unprofessional, in my opinion. He's a walking locker room cancer, it seems.

(I know, I'm not Bill. Deal with it )
- Giroux_Is_God

would you hate him if he was wearing orange and black?

Essentially they took an archive of purely draft pick for draft pick trades over the past long time (20 years if im not mistaken), and I guess crunched some numbers to figure out an algorithm that could give each pick a point value from 0.0 to 100.0 (the first overall). Here's the whole chart:


- JAKEw1234

That chart states than the sum of the 8th, 12th, and 16th overall picks are worth more than the first overall. I'm gonna have to argue that one.

Essentially they took an archive of purely draft pick for draft pick trades over the past long time (20 years if im not mistaken), and I guess crunched some numbers to figure out an algorithm that could give each pick a point value from 0.0 to 100.0 (the first overall). Here's the whole chart:

- JAKEw1234

Well, it's certainly interesting.

That chart states than the sum of the 8th, 12th, and 16th overall picks are worth more than the first overall. I'm gonna have to argue that one.
- jmatchett383

It's not meant to be an exact formula... it's just an estimation of cost. Here's the original article which fully explains the though process and the margin for error:
http://www.broadstreethoc...aft-pick-value-trading-up

Note this passage specifically:

However, the value estimates for the top five picks are still an untested extrapolation and should probably come with a grain of salt.

The Flyers should take the best player available. It doesn't have to be a defenseman. Who are you packaging with Grossmann to get a #1?
- MJL

I understand the best player available concept. And that's fine. But if they go that route and it's a center they draft they better move a center to address other needs. Whether its a winger dman goalie. That's why I say draft for a need. Or trade picks and coots for a dman. Or winger. Just something. Coots as a 3rd line center for the next 3to 5 years makes me sick. It's a waste. To get a true #1 we are going to overpay I've always said that. I don't care who they trade b screen coburn read grossman picks galore as long as we get the best player in the deal and do t give the whole core away. I'm not saying make a lindros trade for a yandle type dman. I have confidence in homer. Maybe we font get the dman this year. We got mason. Ho get the winger this year if possible and dman next year. Whatever homer will do something. Still think good time to be flyers fan. All in all we only need a few pieces I think everyone agrees it's just how and who to use to get them. Still rather be in phillys position than say a buffalo or Calgary. Lol

would you hate him if he was wearing orange and black?
- sarmen25

Yes.

And I say that with certainty.

In my eyes, professional athletes should be professional. They're role models for kids and have a spotlight on them constantly. I value behavior higher than most. It's just the way I see things. I hate when players' egos get so big that they're a distraction. It's unnecessary and selfish to value yourself over a team.

I'm not saying Subban values himself over his team. I'm not saying many players do that, especially in hockey. But, at the same time, screaming at a teammate on national television (or any game, really...) is not how you handle things.

Professional athletes are, needless to say, extremely lucky to be doing what they do to make a metric (frank) ton more money than all of us do. It annoys me when they act like children.

Going back to the "would you hate him", yes. I would. I hated Carcillo because of the way he ran his mouth. I hate how Tortarella is so full of himself. I hated Terrell Owens. I hated (although it WAS fun) when Jroll made those comments about the Mets a few seasons ago....

Now guys like Lappy....that's a different story. Everyone needs to be like that