Yeah, not a great analogy. Don't forget that Jordan was also one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history as well.
- Kentxo

Nah the analogy is fine, Bill Russell is arguably the best basketball player ever and this is a debate pertaining to the best hockey player ever.

Russell averaged +21 rebounds for 10 years and +18 for the remainder and was a +15PPG player until 30. And was a monster in the playoffs especially rebounding wise. 5 time MVP, 4 time total rebound leader with numerous seconds (competing with Wilt... Also kind of a good player), top 5 minutes played pretty much every year, getting into advanced metrics he was the top defensive win player every year he played but 2.

The guy was not an offensive dynamo but was an all around force to be reckoned with and a winner.

My reference was more generational. How do you compare players like Wilt and Russell to players like Jordan? Kind of tough.

Not dissimilar to trying to compare defenders today in Hockey to defenders in the 80s and 90s. There is no comparison because the game is that much different.

The analogy fits however because while any of those players mentioned can be argued as being the "best player" both the Great One and His Airness broke out in the 80s and hit peak popularity in the 90s when BIG MONEY started to become a factor in sports. Gretzky and Jordan are the best because they were brilliant players who were a joy to watch but also because each of them took their respective sport, became the face of that sport and were the mechanism that drove it to the next level of popularity and recognition.

More primitive Medicine and surgical procedures held Orr’s career back. Orr without medically butchered knees has a chance at a complete career.
- paulr

Part of maintaining a career is staying healthy, ask Lemeiux. It's irrelevant, Gretz played a full NHL career, had his injuries as well. Excuses are like A s s H o l e s... Gretzky is the best of all time.

Ladd was the biggest loss from the purge. I remember thinking that when it happened. Stalberg is no Ladd but he brings something different and valuable. The only way the Hawks keep him is by dumping Bolland and some combination of Oduya, Carcillo, Frolik etc
- Bjm84

I think it was Niemi.

Part of maintaining a career is staying healthy, ask Lemeiux. It's irrelevant, Gretz played a full NHL career, had his injuries as well. Excuses are like A s s H o l e s... Gretzky is the best of all time.
- nickmo2699

Who decided career longevity is a criteria of who is the better player?

I think it was Niemi.
- Return of the Roar

Respectfully disagree .

Niemi is > than Crawford but this team has been missing the Ladd / Big Buff type of player in the last 2 playoffs more than a goalie upgrade.

Hopefully the 2013 team speed and slight replenishments of toughness/skill types like Shaw , the resurgence of Hammer are the difference between this seasons teams and the last 2 seasons.

Who decided career longevity is a criteria of who is the better player?
- paulr

Can I ask how it is not?

Gretz was the best player in the game for 15-16 of his 20 seasons

Orr played half of that

I think it was Niemi.
- Return of the Roar

Compelling thought. Maybe on the grounds that he plays such as premium position and is potential top 6-7 in the league. Crawford has generally played pretty well though and is only a notch or two below Niemi in caliber.

Idk about that, Orr was reckless with his body and hardly lasted long enough. You cant compare Defenseman and forward. Orr was best D-Man of all time and Gretz was the best forward. Respect your hockey knowledge JJ but gretz was a one in a million player that played the game at a slow motion place and made it look easy. He holds records that will never be broken and won a nice amount of cups. Both players had great teams.

All in all, I take Gretz because he played the game smarter than Orr did. Orr was a warrior but his style of play held him back.
- nickmo2699

Let me guess. You are under 45 (no offense). But . . .

Bobby Orr, maybe pound for pound the toughest fighter in the league when he played. One of the greatest skaters of all time. One of the greatest passers of all time. He hurt his knees before the age of advanced treatment we have today and at least one doctor botched his knee. That's what cut his career short. If he played today or even in the 90s or maybe the 80s, the knees would not have been the issue they were. Fact.

Part of maintaining a career is staying healthy, ask Lemeiux. It's irrelevant, Gretz played a full NHL career, had his injuries as well. Excuses are like A s s H o l e s... Gretzky is the best of all time.
- nickmo2699

The longevity thing is a weak argument. You're blaming Orr for poor medical care? It had NOTHING to do with his style of play.

Compare them at their best, the prime of their careers. It's a tough call, but Bobby Orr was flat out unGODly.

Can I ask how it is not?

Gretz was the best player in the game for 15-16 of his 20 seasons

Orr played half of that
- nickmo2699

Orr's last three "seasons" with the Hawks he was playing bone on bone in his knees . . . and still averaged over a point a game.

From the blueline.

Please.

The longevity thing is a weak argument. You're blaming Orr for poor medical care? It had NOTHING to do with his style of play.

Compare them at their best, the prime of their careers. It's a tough call, but Bobby Orr was flat out unGODly.
- John Jaeckel

That would be a GREAT BIG AMEN!!!!

Orr's last three "seasons" with the Hawks he was playing bone on bone in his knees . . . and still averaged over a point a game.

From the blueline.

Please.
- John Jaeckel

And let's not forget Orr played both sides of the both bluelines while Gretz half as much. Orr could shut down Gretz but not the other way around.
Put it another way, if I was starting a team I would take Orr in his prime in a heartbeat over Gretz in his prime!

The longevity thing is a weak argument. You're blaming Orr for poor medical care? It had NOTHING to do with his style of play.

Compare them at their best, the prime of their careers. It's a tough call, but Bobby Orr was flat out unGODly.
- John Jaeckel

Longevity matters if you ask who was the best professional player. If you're asking who was the most talented then it doesn't

No permission needed. I'm encouraging us to stay on 'Hawks talk is all .

I forgot about Johns. He's basically got Seabrook like ceiling no? I'm not on high Hayes until he starts to lay the body. I've always liked Smith. I think he's got 3rd line written all over him. Could be a decent 4th line guy as well.
- Bjm84

NO. Talk about buying the prospect hype. Seabrook was a member of the best WJC championship team ever and team Canada for the Olympics. Johns has never been, nor will ever be close to that good

NO. Talk about buying the prospect hype. Seabrook was a member of the best WJC championship team ever and team Canada for the Olympics. Johns has never been, nor will ever be close to that good
- rollpards19

Johns' high end is probably 4-5

Johns' high end is probably 4-5
- John Jaeckel

JJ what about Stanton? Think he's ready to step in as a 5 or 6 next year?

JJ what about Stanton? Think he's ready to step in as a 5 or 6 next year?
- Bjm84

Maybe 6-7, he's a tough kid, natural leader and he makes good decisions

I am old enough to have seen both Orr and Gretzky in their primes. Obviously I am not a fan of either the Bruins or the Oilers so my opinion should be unbiased.

In my time there has been no one like Orr. He made ordinary players around him (like the ones the Bruins got from the Hawks in that infamous trade) into stars. This guy was unstoppable before the knee issues started early in his career -easily the best skater I have seen. When comparing players we have a tendency to underrate ones from the past and overrate current or recent ones. Remember that Orr played in a 6 team league and still dominated.

And yes, knee operations in that era were done in butcher shops. I played rec hockey with an ex-pro from that era who had had operations on both of his knees. Those knees looked like road maps.

Orr's last three "seasons" with the Hawks he was playing bone on bone in his knees . . . and still averaged over a point a game.

From the blueline.

Please.
- John Jaeckel

Please what, A point per game when the the game was slower, not as skilled, and scoring thirty goals was attainable by any player. Gretz was the first high end skill player to play the game at a competitive level. Orr is one of the greatest but its difficult to compare d-man and forward. But if health is such a factor why is Lemeiux not being discussed. Super Mario had the size to be successful in any generation.

To your point about Orr and the doctors f-ing up his knees at times, that argument is not relevant. Longevity plays a role. I am not saying Bobby Orr isnt in the top 3, I just find it hard to put him at the top.

Respectfully disagree .

Niemi is > than Crawford but this team has been missing the Ladd / Big Buff type of player in the last 2 playoffs more than a goalie upgrade.

Hopefully the 2013 team speed and slight replenishments of toughness/skill types like Shaw , the resurgence of Hammer are the difference between this seasons teams and the last 2 seasons.
- mrpaulish

I suppose the reason why I say Niemi is that of the players who were lost to the purge - Versteeg, Ladd, Buff, Niemi - Niemi may well have been the only one which was essentially preventable.

Ladd - didn't want to be second (or third) fiddle any longer. Got the status and the pay day in Atlanta.

Buff - did not want to play forward, wanted to play D. His defensive skill set was not a fit with the Hawks' system. Got to play where he wanted to and got the big pay day.

Versteeg - too much of a one way player, and got silly money.

The longevity thing is a weak argument. You're blaming Orr for poor medical care? It had NOTHING to do with his style of play.

Compare them at their best, the prime of their careers. It's a tough call, but Bobby Orr was flat out unGODly.
- John Jaeckel

One last thing about Orr. If I am not mistaken he was the first guy to make the spin-o-rama popular albeit at the blueline on the PP as guys would fly out to check him before he got his shot or pass off. I can recall times when he made opposing fowards on the PK look silly as he spun away from the check at the last moment and the other guy ended up in the neutral zone wondering where Bobby went. Not that I am any kind of Orr fan or anything...

Just met John McDonough at Nordstrom.

Nice guy. Thanked me for being a fan and told me that winning in May and June was all that mattered.

Nice message.

Just met John McDonough at Nordstrom.

Nice guy. Thanked me for being a fan and told me that winning in May and June was all that mattered.

Nice message.
- AceRatbang

Sounds like the outgoing message when you're on hold...

What else would he say?

Orr's last three "seasons" with the Hawks he was playing bone on bone in his knees . . . and still averaged over a point a game.

From the blueline.

Please.
- John Jaeckel

Orr also played with no socks.

I suppose the reason why I say Niemi is that of the players who were lost to the purge - Versteeg, Ladd, Buff, Niemi - Niemi may well have been the only one which was essentially preventable.

Ladd - didn't want to be second (or third) fiddle any longer. Got the status and the pay day in Atlanta.

Buff - did not want to play forward, wanted to play D. His defensive skill set was not a fit with the Hawks' system. Got to play where he wanted to and got the big pay day.

Versteeg - too much of a one way player, and got silly money.
- Return of the Roar

That's a good point. However, Ladd would like mighty fine lining up with Sharp and Kane on the 2nd line.