When Crosby has a 200 point season then that argument holds water
- rollpards19

Wasnt comparing Sid to Gretzky , was making a point on the argument that "stats don't tell the whole story."


They may not tell the entire story, but across a career, they are the most important plot points.

Given the recent concussion/injury scares, you may have a point.

But Sid is a once in a generation talent. 1.4 points per game across his career. Stats don't tell the whole story - but even with the smaller sample size, that's seriously #4 all time.
- FredoXV

So based purely on stats I guess Kane is a better player than Toews too?

I suppose Gretzky isn't the greatest player of all time.
- FredoXV

He wasn't, Bobby Orr was.

Yup.
- Ogilthorpe2

Well Crosby has an absurd amount of skill that cant be argued and he makes the players on his line better.

I think the distinction is that Toews makes the players on his team better.
- fattybeef

Crosby is a better offensive player...But defensively Toews has him beat...it is very close, and you can't go wrong with either guy..Toews is better at the dot, along the boards, and leads the league in takeaways, while on pace to score over 40 goals(if it were an 82 game season)...While Crosby was waaaay ahead on the entire league in the scoring race, is a better set up guy than Toews...I think Toews could have better offensive stats if he didn't kill himself going into the corners and going to battle along the boards so much,but that isn't his way of hockey...Someone said Crosby is a generational talent, i agree, but so is Toews imo....Toews will sacrifice stats to win it all,and when Stevie Y did that his point totals went down, but number of Cups won went up..So here is to hoping the same happens with Toews and the blackhawks!

He wasn't, Bobby Orr was.
- paulr

Gretzky...most UNSELFISH player of all time...and STILL the GREATEST goal scorer.

So based purely on stats I guess Kane is a better player than Toews too?
- paulr

You must have skipped over the point when I said - "I know stats don't tell the whole story."

Gretzky...most UNSELFISH player of all time...and STILL the GREATEST goal scorer.
- philco28

Because of difference in position etc. use this analogy.

Clone 20 Orrs and 20 Gretzkys, give them both a goalie of equal ability. Then play a seven game series. Who wins? We both know only 4 games are played, we also both know Gretzky's team won't be the winner.

Orr could have stopped Gretzky, Gretzky could never have stopped Orr.

Crosby is a better offensive player...But defensively Toews has him beat...it is very close, and you can't go wrong with either guy..Toews is better at the dot, along the boards, and leads the league in takeaways, while on pace to score over 40 goals(if it were an 82 game season)...While Crosby was waaaay ahead on the entire league in the scoring race, is a better set up guy than Toews...I think Toews could have better offensive stats if he didn't kill himself going into the corners and going to battle along the boards so much,but that isn't his way of hockey...Someone said Crosby is a generational talent, i agree, but so is Toews imo....Toews will sacrifice stats to win it all,and when Stevie Y did that his point totals went down, but number of Cups won went up..So here is to hoping the same happens with Toews and the blackhawks!
- captainserious

Again, I'm not arguing against Toews as a great player - he is, and your points are valid.

My personal opinion - given the keys to the castle (And assuming putting both players' injury histrories aside) - I'm strarting a team with #87 before #19.

I hate Bolland's inability to stay of the ice and win draws (ignoring last night) ...and his contract. Thank goodness there's only one year remaining.
- ArlingtonRob

Hard to believe one of the best shut-down centers sucks so bad at draws. But I'm willing to give Bolland the playoffs before I talk about trading him. What is amazing is he has just as many playoff points including the Cup year than Sharp in less games and more points in the same amount of games than Hossa. That is while facing the #1 lines

You must have skipped over the point when I said - "I know stats don't tell the whole story."
- FredoXV

I saw that, then I saw you make your point using the same stats you claimed didn't tell the story.

He wasn't, Bobby Orr was.
- paulr

Two thumbs, way up!

I saw that, then I saw you make your point using the same stats you claimed didn't tell the story.
- paulr

WHOLE Story.


They are a large, large contributing factor.

I suppose Gretzky isn't the greatest player of all time.
- FredoXV

You could make an argument for Glenn Hall or Bobby Orr if you want to be a pain in the butt. However, Gretzky like Jordan changed the game and did so in a very dramatic very prolific way at a time when professional sports were starting to explode at more than just the local or regional level.

Because of difference in position etc. use this analogy.

Clone 20 Orrs and 20 Gretzkys, give them both a goalie of equal ability. Then play a seven game series. Who wins? We both know only 4 games are played, we also both know Gretzky's team won't be the winner.

Orr could have stopped Gretzky, Gretzky could never have stopped Orr.
- paulr

You sure about that ?

You sure about that ?
- philco28

Other than the cloning part, 110%

You could make an argument for Glenn Hall or Bobby Orr if you want to be a pain in the butt. However, Gretzky like Jordan changed the game and did so in a very dramatic very prolific way at a time when professional sports were starting to explode at more than just the local or regional level.
- fattybeef

Bobby Orr didn't? WOW is all I Can say about that.

Other than the cloning part, 110%
- paulr

Orr was great, Gretzky was great...it's all subjective.

Orr was great, Gretzky was great...it's all subjective.
- philco28

Agreed, except Orr was way better!

Again, I'm not arguing against Toews as a great player - he is, and your points are valid.

My personal opinion - given the keys to the castle (And assuming putting both players' injury histrories aside) - I'm strarting a team with #87 before #19.
- FredoXV

Not to demonize Crosby, but the guy didn't win the Conn Smythe when his team won the cup, 19 did, and will every time they win unless a goalie plays unreal

Orr was great, Gretzky was great...it's all subjective.
- philco28

Don't know why I got drawn into an argument over non-provable hypotheicals - one part of sports talk that I generally loathe.

Again, I'm not arguing against Toews as a great player - he is, and your points are valid.

My personal opinion - given the keys to the castle (And assuming putting both players' injury histrories aside) - I'm strarting a team with #87 before #19.
- FredoXV

I think it depends on the type of team you want to build.

Again, I'm not arguing against Toews as a great player - he is, and your points are valid.

My personal opinion - given the keys to the castle (And assuming putting both players' injury histrories aside) - I'm strarting a team with #87 before #19.
- FredoXV

Oh i wan't poo pooing your take on Crosby..I think I even wrote in my post that either choice would be the correct one..And because we see more of Toews than Crosby and because Johnny captained this team to a Cup, us Hawks fans will be more inclined to go with Toews.....I honestly think both of them are head and shoulders above everyone else in the NHL...I think Geno and Ovie are great, and I love Datsyuk, and Hossa is up there with themas well..But right now based on age and performance, Toews and Crosby imo are 1 and 1a in the NHL...and the funny thing is Toews may never win a Hart trophy

Gretzky...most UNSELFISH player of all time...and STILL the GREATEST goal scorer.
- philco28

What is amazing about him is he did all that with no God-given gifts. He had no strength, size, or speed. Look at lemieux, how many goals did he score with his speed cherry-picking? Or use his long reach to beat D-men and score?

Agreed, except Orr was way better!
- paulr

Gretzky lasted longer, won more cups and shattered EVERY SCORING RECORD IMAGINABLE