In order to get a potential stud dman you are trading Schenn, Vorachek, or Couturier, and maybe adding to that package. What is your argument for trading or keeping each one?
- TheGreat28

I would trade either of them for the right player. I don't think I would trade Couturier for Subban. I would trade B Schenn or Voracek for Subban.

the flyers and coach are in denial, the $hit has hit the fan

The team defense on this squad is absolutely laughable. There are plenty of teams who do much more with less. And they seem to destroy the Flyers at every opportunity.

The book is out on this team and everyone seems to know it but the coach.
- MBFlyerfan

Maybe only the Flyers should have stayed locked out. Perhaps they still think they are....

I used to feel that way. I value Couturier very highly, especially from a defensive standpoint. His ability to take defensive zone draws, play the pivot on the top PK unit and generally help alleviate those duties from Giroux are huge.

And his overall potential is to add 50-70 points/season on top of that eventually.

But I also feel like you can find defensive specialists to plug in, especially if you have quality offensive centers on the roster already like Giroux, B. Schenn (potential) and Briere (fading).

If you can acquire a defenseman as talented, both offensively and defensively, as Subban I would trade Couturier for him.
- bradleyc4

I completely agree. I don't trade Couturier because of this year. I trade him because of the combination of market value and replacement cost. Laughton would be a drop-off, but would be acceptable for me because he will likely be NHL ready and I don't see him as a 4th line center.

So you can put Laughton in @ 3C and trade either Schenn or Couturier. I think Schenn has higher upside offensively which I want from my 2nd line to take pressure off of G. So for the right offer, and I mean a great offer, I trade Couts.

Perhaps Cup Contender was a little strong. Actually, after reading your comments and MJLs comments, perhaps Homer saw two different paths. If they could get Parise/Suter/Weber - some combination of those three - and Bryz regained form they would be a cup contender.

The other path - without any marquee free agents - would take longer. Nobody really expected Rusty or Gervais or Foster to put them over the top. These are 1 year throw-away deals. I'm sure Holmgren wasn't expecting this much of a regression, but at least he didn't panic (then) and trade for an aging veteran with just enough talent to cost Coots or Simmonds or Read.

I guess we'll see based on what he does next. I agree with your needs. I just think that that dman will be a problem. It's either a reclamation project, a 34+ yo guy that will still cost one of the youngsters, or a young talent that will gut the team.

But it is also clear that after the season they need a coaching change and attitude adjustment.
- TheGreat28

A lot depends on the draft. If they get MacKinnon, that means they can move a forward who was considered "untouchable" before. If they get Jones, they have a kid that can likely play right away, but is a few years away from being a real top pair guy. But they can go out and get a short term fix in FA, because Jones will develop.

There shouldn't be panic at all. They key is to avoid making deals that are short term fixes where youth or high pick leave.

He's got to avoid the bad goals, though.

Last night, 3-2 game and event though it shouldn't have been close it was.

And yeah, Coburn and Mesz looked awful on it, but that wrap around has to be stopped. That kind of goal is exactly the kind of goal you spend franchise cash on a goalie to stop.

The sad thing is, I think Bryz cares more and is more bang on in his assessments and comments than 90% of the rest of the team. But he has to be better than he's been.
- Jsaquella

I don't have an issue with the wrap around goal. On the replay from the one angle, there was really a small space to put that puck, and it had to be a perfect shot to go in. Somehow Nash pulled that off. My problem is where is the coverage in front of the net? The way the Flyers are playing in their own end, there should have been a forward down low to cut Nash off. If there was a goal that he should've stopped, it was the Richards goal. Providing he wasn't screened by Callahan. I'm not sure if he was, or wasn't.


Edit: On the Nash wrap around. Check out Couturier! How much did he pay for his ticket to watch the game?

He's got to avoid the bad goals, though.

Last night, 3-2 game and event though it shouldn't have been close it was.

And yeah, Coburn and Mesz looked awful on it, but that wrap around has to be stopped. That kind of goal is exactly the kind of goal you spend franchise cash on a goalie to stop.

The sad thing is, I think Bryz cares more and is more bang on in his assessments and comments than 90% of the rest of the team. But he has to be better than he's been.
- Jsaquella

That last point is one thing I don't think anybody anticipated. The way Bryz and his 'space cadet personality' were talked about, he was this close to being called a locker room cancer. This season, I think his comments have been refreshing. He's been honest, but not incendiary. Not a grand point here, but worth mentioning.

Thanks for the writeup Bill. Can anyone even say that they want this team to make playoffs this season? The way this team is playing shows us no sign that they are even close to a contender. Hope for a decent draft pick and trim some fat off of this roster to start with. Them losing isnt what bothers me so much as how high up our team's salary is and barely having anything to show for it besides leading the league in PIM's. Accept were not making playoffs and work from there to decide who you want to build this team around and what type of system were going to play.. How was Lavvy expected to turn this team into a defense first team when our D has a couple of underachieving Jack's, a 6, a 2, a promising young 8 and an Old Maid. Got any aces? Go fish.

With help from SR. GM Ed Snider. It is really sad, but the start of my day now has a daily ritual of checking ESPN for two things. First, where the Flyers are in the league standings and draft order. Second is where Bob is in goalie stats.
- TheGreat28

I have to admit I have done the same more often than not. Ugh! Team has made me go from mad to apathy (to some degree).

Ya, my package was still a little weak... it was based on the down year he is having at the moment. He will be a stud though for sure in a few years from now. If another team can poach him off your roster for a couple of B prospects and a late 1st that would be something!

Sens will not trade Cowen or Ceci who are going to be real studs down the line. Weircoch is having a great year but he will get lost in the shuffle once Karlsson and Cowen get back next season and once Ceci is ready for the NHL. Our other D prospects are Gryba (shutdown type) and Borweki... nothing to really jump all over... We do have a lot of forward prospects and young forwards playing in the NHL though that will be available, Da Costa, Prince, Pageau, Hoffman, Greening, Smith and Classen who are available for the right price.
- riceroni

You have to give to get. Couturier should absolutely fetch one of Cowen or Ceci. And since you have enough secondary dmen, it wouldn't be a bad move for the Sens.

He's got to avoid the bad goals, though.

Last night, 3-2 game and event though it shouldn't have been close it was.

And yeah, Coburn and Mesz looked awful on it, but that wrap around has to be stopped. That kind of goal is exactly the kind of goal you spend franchise cash on a goalie to stop.

The sad thing is, I think Bryz cares more and is more bang on in his assessments and comments than 90% of the rest of the team. But he has to be better than he's been.
- Jsaquella

I put the blame for that goal on the defense.

I have to admit I have done the same more often than not. Ugh! Team has made me go from mad to apathy (to some degree).
- fnmjoe13

Hey...it could be worse. With G having a somewhat down year compared to last year, I'm now starting to believe in the Captain's Curse!

A lot depends on the draft. If they get MacKinnon, that means they can move a forward who was considered "untouchable" before. If they get Jones, they have a kid that can likely play right away, but is a few years away from being a real top pair guy. But they can go out and get a short term fix in FA, because Jones will develop.

There shouldn't be panic at all. They key is to avoid making deals that are short term fixes where youth or high pick leave.
- Jsaquella

I really hope they don't panic. This team has a lot of talent, and the ship needs to be righted. However, that should not mean that this summer must be one in which it's transformed into a cup contender. Make the smart moves, with the goal of getting this club back on the right track and back in the postseason picture. Keep building up the foundation of this team, both in talent on hand and in experience.

That last point is one thing I don't think anybody anticipated. The way Bryz and his 'space cadet personality' were talked about, he was this close to being called a locker room cancer. This season, I think his comments have been refreshing. He's been honest, but not incendiary. Not a grand point here, but worth mentioning.
- BulliesPhan87

I blame the media tools for that nonsense.

But you are very right. He's the only one speaking honestly about this. The rest of them with their "we're not out of it" and other cliche-littered rhetoric can go pound sand.

You have to give to get. Couturier should absolutely fetch one of Cowen or Ceci. And since you have enough secondary dmen, it wouldn't be a bad move for the Sens.
- TheGreat28

Cowen or Ceci better be dam good!

He's got to avoid the bad goals, though.

Last night, 3-2 game and event though it shouldn't have been close it was.

And yeah, Coburn and Mesz looked awful on it, but that wrap around has to be stopped. That kind of goal is exactly the kind of goal you spend franchise cash on a goalie to stop.

The sad thing is, I think Bryz cares more and is more bang on in his assessments and comments than 90% of the rest of the team. But he has to be better than he's been.
- Jsaquella

Yes, the soft goals allowed have increased. Whether it's due to fatigue, being constantly hung out to dry or what, soft goals deflate a team like nothing else.

That being said, he's constantly been under siege especially early in games (constant odd man rushes) and more often than not he's made some really tough saves to keep the team in the game. I made the point last night that the overall team play does not deserve the goaltender to constantly bail them out, that is fools gold.

Yes, the soft goals allowed have increased. Whether it's due to fatigue, being constantly hung out to dry or what, soft goals deflate a team like nothing else.

That being said, he's constantly been under siege especially early in games (constant odd man rushes) and more often than not he's made some really tough saves to keep the team in the game. I made the point last night that the overall team play does not deserve the goaltender to constantly bail them out, that is fools gold.
- PLindbergh31

Fools gold is a great statement. That is exactly what it is.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Beyond the Blame Game
- bmeltzer

Did I see correctly the Flyers strength of schedule is the harded out of all teams? Pretty sure this team is finishing bottom 3. I still like the core of youth on this team (Voracek, Giroux, Simmonds, Couturier, the Schenns) and it should have been expected that Couturier and B Schenn would have some second year issues. The fact that veterans like Briere and Hartnell being hurt and coming up VERY small has put additional pressure on the kids. this season is a wash and quite frankly I am ok with that. this organization needs to restock with some skilled prospects. I want to see them sell. Its so unfortunate that Danny is hurt because I have to think whoever loses out on the Ignila sweestakes will look to a team like the Flyers with Briere if they can get him to waive the NMC.

I agree that Holmgren spent last summer chasing guys who were not coming here or in Weber's case, chased a guy who was really out of the Flyers control to get. But for the people who feel the Carter and Richards trades were bad ones (like many of the hosts on WIP), I still like those moves.

I am a fan of Lavy but I am to the point where I just want him to go. And I feel bad that I feel that way.

Oh and a PS: sell sell sell

Yes, the soft goals allowed have increased. Whether it's due to fatigue, being constantly hung out to dry or what, soft goals deflate a team like nothing else.
- PLindbergh31

I was going to go off on this statement, but then I read the rest of your post.

That being said, he's constantly been under siege especially early in games (constant odd man rushes) and more often than not he's made some really tough saves to keep the team in the game. I made the point last night that the overall team play does not deserve the goaltender to constantly bail them out, that is fools gold.

Yes.

I know I harp a lot on the coach, probably to the point of distraction. I really do not lay all the blame on him. I'm just so frustrated by the lack of effective adjustments and the seam old issues happening again and a again that I really got to the point where I wanted him fired more than anything else surrounding the team.

I was so pissed off after the Boston loss that I got obsessed with them making a change, and every successive game got me more and more upset.

Now, I'm past it, because there's really almost no chance to make the playoffs. There's no coach that will come in and possibly spur them on or correct the issues. Making a change now also means the new guy is an obvious interim, so he'll have a hard time with accountability.

The only out of work "retread" I'd consider now is Guy Boucher, because he's shown he can be good with young players and he's a good strategy guy, who teaches. But I don't know how sold I am on him.

I know tht a change back on the 9th likely wouldn't have done anything. I just had no faith that Laviolette could turn things around.

Hey...it could be worse. With G having a somewhat down year compared to last year, I'm now starting to believe in the Captain's Curse!
- TheGreat28

Haven't gone to that yet but, now that you mention it...

A lot depends on the draft. If they get MacKinnon, that means they can move a forward who was considered "untouchable" before. If they get Jones, they have a kid that can likely play right away, but is a few years away from being a real top pair guy. But they can go out and get a short term fix in FA, because Jones will develop.

There shouldn't be panic at all. They key is to avoid making deals that are short term fixes where youth or high pick leave.
- Jsaquella

For the most part I'm on the exact same page as you with regards to strategy going forward.

- Coaching change
- Briere Buyout
- Wait until next year for decision on Bryz buyout
- Trade Gags, Rusty for picks
- Listen for Talbot, Coburn, Hartnell but only if blown away. I personally keep Coburn and Hartnell.
- Wait for draft to see if you get a top forward or d, and trade accordingly.
- No major knee jerk moves
- No trading for aging veterans. In a year, if they are closer, maybe...just not now
- Keep picks
- Finally learn to develop D

Not only that, but how long before they're really ready to make a difference, even if they can develop them?

Not bringing back Carle and Jagr, is not the reason why this team is in the mess it's in. And drafting Jones or any other defenseman in the Draft, isn't the solution either. Not that wouldn't help by adding a future peice. But this team needs a radical wholesale change in how it plays the game. Not a radical change in it's roster. It should be a playoff team. It is not. Now lookng towards the missing peices that it's going to need to be a Cup contender, is a separate conversation from what ails this team currently.
- MJL

Yes, the soft goals allowed have increased. Whether it's due to fatigue, being constantly hung out to dry or what, soft goals deflate a team like nothing else.

That being said, he's constantly been under siege especially early in games (constant odd man rushes) and more often than not he's made some really tough saves to keep the team in the game. I made the point last night that the overall team play does not deserve the goaltender to constantly bail them out, that is fools gold.
- PLindbergh31

-------------------------------

From the Columbus Dispatch :

Bobrovsky kicked out all 34 shots he faced in regulation, but fell short in the shootout. "Our defensemen were under siege. Our goalie was under siege," Blue Jackets coach Todd Richards said. "We didn't do enough in the offensive zone to give them a break. We didn't do enough. Not nearly enough. The level they were playing at ... the speed, the physicality. We weren't there." Blue Jackets forward Matt Calvert added that Bobrovsky's "outstanding" play was the reason the Blue Jackets at least got a much needed point. Bobrovsky has a 1.23 GAA and .960 save percentage in 12 games this season.


It's possible to be under seige and still not let in 5 goals.