Imagine if we ended up with Jones and Nurse.

I don't think its too crazy(tho probably unlikely) to think we don't have the pieces to pull something like that off.
- hereticpride

I doubt they could get another top 5 in this particular draft without moving Giroux or something crazy, but even if they get another pick (anywhere really) they'll have the potential to draft another good player. The key at that point is using their smarts and identifying who that player really is.

Edit: And Giroux is still obviously young enough to be an elite player in a couple years when whatever D men they can draft are playing well in the NHL. Other guys on the team..... meh. If they are what it takes to get another high end pick, so be it

Did everyone BUT Homer know this was a pipe dream? I remember during the summer when he had those offers on the table. The team was just in limbo as other 2nd tier free agents were falling by the wayside. Players that probably could have helped. Even players on their own roster like Carle and Jagr. (please don't start about the season Carle is having in Tampa.)

I don't even think Weber could have been the solution, though he would have certainly helped.

Sure you can say Homer swung big and missed. In the case of Weber so be it, he took a shot, Weber SIGNED it, and then Nashville matched. But the Suter and Parise things seemed ill conceived from the start, it seems everyone but the Flyers knew they would not sign here. And THAT, I cant give Homer a pass on.

This team from the coach on down to the backup goalie needs an attitude adjustment.
- MBFlyerfan

Not sure Leighton getting an improved attitude is going to help. He's not that talented to begin with and has seen less ice time than Couterier.

Imagine if we ended up with Jones and Nurse.

I don't think its too crazy(tho probably unlikely) to think we don't have the pieces to pull something like that off.
- hereticpride

I still think Montreal is the team to target to try to get Beaulieu and a couple of their D prospects. If the Bruins get Iginla Montreal will be really pressed to do something. Coots and talbot would be a great addition, assuming that They think Coots confidence can be rebuilt in time for PO run.

I doubt they could get another top 5 in this particular draft without moving Giroux or something crazy, but even if they get another pick (anywhere really) they'll have the potential to draft another good player. The key at that point is using their smarts and identifying who that player really is.
- eayost

A lot of people have Nurse sliding down to 10 or so. I would move Coburn to add a 1st and package it with our high 2nd rounder. That would probably get us pretty close to somewhere where Nurse or the next best option should still be available.

Couldn't turn out any worse than how Coburn is playing right now. PIM would certainly come down.

2014 looks like a pretty strong class for UFA defensmen. Draft Jones, sign a big name the following summer and they should be good.

Did everyone BUT Homer know this was a pipe dream? I remember during the summer when he had those offers on the table. The team was just in limbo as other 2nd tier free agents were falling by the wayside. Players that probably could have helped. Even players on their own roster like Carle and Jagr. (please don't start about the season Carle is having in Tampa.)

I don't even think Weber could have been the solution, though he would have certainly helped.

Sure you can say Homer swung big and missed. In the case of Weber so be it, he took a shot, Weber SIGNED it, and then Nashville matched. But the Suter and Parise things seemed ill conceived from the start, it seems everyone but the Flyers knew they would not sign here. And THAT, I cant give Homer a pass on.

This team from the coach on down to the backup goalie needs an attitude adjustment.
- MBFlyerfan

The first quick rebuild was done mostly via free agency (Kimmo, Hartnall, Briere... Coburn trade obviously helped). I think those days are over, and I'm a bit concerned of Holmgren's ability to adjust to that.

The first quick rebuild was done mostly via free agency (Kimmo, Hartnall, Briere... Coburn trade obviously helped). I think those days are over, and I'm a bit concerned of Holmgren's ability to adjust to that.
- eayost

He did another rebuild with the Carter and Richards trades. Those days will never be over.

A lot of people have Nurse sliding down to 10 or so. I would move Coburn to add a 1st and package it with our high 2nd rounder. That would probably get us pretty close to somewhere where Nurse or the next best option should still be available.

Couldn't turn out any worse than how Coburn is playing right now. PIM would certainly come down.
- hereticpride

I thought the most recent rankings had Nurse at #5. I'm not well versed in the prospects though. Every draft there's always some teams reaching a bit against the grain of the status quo rankings, so someone inevitably falls down the draft order a bit unexpectedly. Maybe the Flyers get lucky if they do get another #1 pick

You have a very professional way of telling it like it is, Bill. Like in any big corporation that is failing, you can only get away with blaming the workers and rearranging the deck chairs for so long. It starts at the top, off the ice and in the pipes on the ice. Work your way down, and out from there.

I don't kno, Bill. What did you expect holmgren to do, sign a few solid dmen in free agency THEN take a run at weber/Parise/suter?? If you decide to go big in free agency, you do it first, before "settling" for the more reliable options. I will never question or fault holmgren for trying to add those big names, because if we had gotten them, people would be singing a much different tune right now, including yourself.

Did everyone BUT Homer know this was a pipe dream? I remember during the summer when he had those offers on the table. The team was just in limbo as other 2nd tier free agents were falling by the wayside. Players that probably could have helped. Even players on their own roster like Carle and Jagr. (please don't start about the season Carle is having in Tampa.)

I don't even think Weber could have been the solution, though he would have certainly helped.

Sure you can say Homer swung big and missed. In the case of Weber so be it, he took a shot, Weber SIGNED it, and then Nashville matched. But the Suter and Parise things seemed ill conceived from the start, it seems everyone but the Flyers knew they would not sign here. And THAT, I cant give Homer a pass on.

This team from the coach on down to the backup goalie needs an attitude adjustment.
- MBFlyerfan

My biggest concern going into the season was too many "if"s. IF Read, Simmonds, Vorachek and Coots build off strong seasons. If Talbot and Hartnell didn't have a big falloff from last year. If Kimmo didn't lose another step. If Mesz and Grossmann could remain injury free. If Bryz became the goalie he was in Phoenix. Etc

Homers big failing was expecting too many, if not all, of those IFs to work out in the Flyers favor.

If you are going that far with the team, Bryz should be available as well. If you aren't worried who your number one center will be next year, you shouldn't worry about who your number #1 goaltender is either.

Bryz is a good goalie but he's not elite (and for the record I do think the Flyers should keep him next year). He needs an allstar defense (and he's had allstar defenses in front of him until he got to Philly) to really shine. Philly is never going to be the Phoenix coyotes or even the 2004 Ducks who put 2 allworld defensemen between him and the puck. Outside of the on ice product the media scrutiny is also much higher in philly. There was never really any pressure on him to produce in his previous stops. He was never the man in Anaheim and in Phoenix they are happy with a good regular season. No expectations.

He can make the highlight save but regardless of the breakdowns in front of him he needs to be more consistant.

Anyway, Bryz is the least of their problems right now but he's not St. Patrick or Brodeur.
- Flyers_01

The Pheonix teams he played on didn't have an All Star defense. They played well as a team defensively. Unlike this team.

I feel horrible for Bryz.

He got no help last night whatsoever in the first period.

He did another rebuild with the Carter and Richards trades. Those days will never be over.
- Jimmygrazz

I guess we can argue about whether that constitutes a full rebuild or not. I don't really think that was the intention when those moves were made. I'm not sure signing a 30+ year old goalie the same offseason is indicative of a full rebuild either

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Beyond the Blame Game
- bmeltzer

Now Bill, don't sugar coat it...give it too us straight.

Serioiusly...there are too many issues from top to bottom on this team to even try to point to just one thing...besides the impact of the lockout and the disjointed start too the season. And that should have been overcome in the first 10 games or so.

Not sure Leighton getting an improved attitude is going to help. He's not that talented to begin with and has seen less ice time than Couterier.
- Flyers_01

True, Leighton gets a pass along with the stick boys.

Paul Holmgren is completely to blame for putting this team on the ice. Bruno Gervais is a borderline NHL defenseman. He shouldn't be playing top 6 minutes. Letting Carle and Jagr walk and signing Fedotenko and Gervais started this whole mess. Not that those 2 would have this team in the playoffs, but they would be much better off then they are now.
- Jimmygrazz

Does anyone really think that the personell on this team, isn't capable of being better then this? If a team is solid defensively, you can get away with Bruno Gervais as your 6th defenseman. If they're brutal defensively such as this team is, you can't. Do you really think Carle and Jagr turn this around if they were here? This goes so much beyond that. The Flyers need a top defenseman. Carle is not a lead defenseman. His is a very good player. But he isn't the player we need. If you have plenty of Cap space for the future, then you re-sign Carle. Used properly, he is very effective. But when you're tight to the Cap. And there is a need for a lead defenseman. You can't make that deal to bring Carle back. This team has the players to be much better.

THANK YOU BILL! I needed a laugh this morning after last night's loss.

I think Bill's best point was that Holmgren wasted this summer chasing the big name players and ended up having to settle for Foster and Gervais. I wonder what this team would look like if Holmgren had decided to just spend the offseason trying to grab a couple of trustworthy defensive defensemen, rather than swing and miss on Suter and Weber and end up with fringe offensive defensemen like Foster and Gervais.
- Coburns_Nose

That's the whole point. After Suter and Weber, what was left? Fringe players.

The Pheonix teams he played on didn't have an All Star defense. They played well as a team defensively. Unlike this team.
- MJL

The team defense on this squad is absolutely laughable. There are plenty of teams who do much more with less. And they seem to destroy the Flyers at every opportunity.

The book is out on this team and everyone seems to know it but the coach.

I guess we can argue about whether that constitutes a full rebuild or not. I don't really think that was the intention when those moves were made. I'm not sure signing a 30+ year old goalie the same offseason is indicative of a full rebuild either
- eayost

I don't think they need a full rebuild. They have a lot of good young pieces. They would be better served with a 2-3 ear plan. But since they have no appetite to wait that long a full quick fix rebuild is more likely. Which is how you end up close but never quite hoisting the cup.

I still don't know why the Flyers were interested in Parise anyways. Was it just to get Suter here too?

A lot of people have Nurse sliding down to 10 or so. I would move Coburn to add a 1st and package it with our high 2nd rounder. That would probably get us pretty close to somewhere where Nurse or the next best option should still be available.

Couldn't turn out any worse than how Coburn is playing right now. PIM would certainly come down.
- hereticpride

And Nurse is going to step right in and replace Coburn? I would not trade Coburn for a draft pick.

I think the days of being able to fill your D corps via free agency is starting to end, or has already ended. Trading for good ones costs too many assets when you have to compete with the offers other teams can field. Lots of decent guys (Edler, Enstrom, etc.) keep being locked up before they hit UFA. There's good reason for that. It looks like the time now when a good guy is avaliable is if a team has 2 of them and focuses on just keeping 1 (Suter, Yandle).

Personally I'm of the opinion that your top 4 defensemen do need to be very good to consistently compete. Yea if they aren't great some years you may get far in the playoffs, but I think having a strong top 4 will consistently allow you to get far. I think the goaltender is obviously important as well. They're on the ice the longest. I agree with some in here that if I'm the Flyers, I look really hard at trying to get another 1st rounder in the draft this year, especially if you can make a deal with a team that thinks they need that 1 piece to make the dance, but ultimately may fall out anyways. Get a pick that ends up in the mid teens. Absolutely ensure that you draft 1 blue chip defenseman in this draft. If they do end up in the top 3 and don't get Jones, then I'm fine with them taking one of the forwards. But still, try your hardest to get another guy this time.

I think it's time to truly wipe the slate and come back with a rebuild mindset, and that's ok. They keep thinking they're just a few pieces away, make moves accordingly, but I just don't think that's the reality. There are no quick fixes, as has been said by numerous people. It'll be a little while. Get as many good players in this draft as possible, and be patient.
- eayost

Agreed Defenseman are at a premium nowadays and way overpaid via free agency...Flyers will need to learn and develop their own.

Get ready boys this team is going to blow/be a bubble team for the next 2/3 years.

And Nurse is going to step right in and replace Coburn? I would not trade Coburn for a draft pick.
- MJL

the only way i trade coburn is for a young puck moving defenseman prospect (must be good) and a pick

I feel horrible for Bryz.

He got no help last night whatsoever in the first period.
- KGBflyers10

I know. Wasn't Bryz' fault. We will hear this all day on the site.
It was his fault - and all the rest of the guys played poorly as well.

I am a big Lavi supporter but time for a wholesale change.

I still believe Bill and his pen are overly jugemental in characterizing individual players.

We nice to say someone is playing poorly without insulting the player.

But the pen has always been easy to use. Just like me now.