This is true but what exactly are you saying? Are you saying Capuano is not at fault for any of these players short comings? I'm not saying i disagree with you saying some of the blame is of course the players but you can actually see some of his demotions, cutting of ice time, etc, as being reasons for these players not excelling. Is he 100% at fault? No way but he has alot to do with it IMO. If I were GM he'd be the last person in the world I'd want part of my young players development. Tavares would excell anywhere, Moulson was instantly inserted on the first line with Tavares, it's hard to dispute their points, playing, etc but there are exceptional players that will excell anywhere and with anyone as coach. If this team had a better coach even to a marginal level the team itself would be better for it as well as the players on an individual level IMO.
- Cptmjl

I'm saying that Jack Capuano is not the reason that Josh Bailey and KO are not productive players on the Isles and haven't really been since they first came up. I'm also not saying that I think Jack is Coach of the Year. Everyone who posts here knows that I'm a harsh critic of Capuano's and have thought for years that this team needed a true veteran NHL coach, not a Gordon or Cappy.

But I refuse to accept the BS excuse of it being Cappy's fault that KO and Bailey are not the contributors they should be this far along into their careers and based upon both being top-ten picks. Cappy has given both guys a ton of ice time. Put them on power play. No benchings for either guy. Cappy may not be a great coach, but he has given Bailey and KO more than enough opportunities to become consistent contributors and neither has answered the bell. Meanwhile, other guys on the roster over that same time, with the same coach, have flourised, with JT and Moulson being prime examples.

I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in holding KO and Bailey responsible for their shortcomings. I don't believe in holding Cappy or Snow or Jankowski, or Neil Smith, or Charles Wang or Sparky responsible for Bailey and KO being absolutely nothing more than plugs on this team.

Look no further than some of the spurts of play by Bailey and KO over the past few games with Cappy as their coach. At times, their line with Nielsen was the Isles best. With that said, neither guy produced offensively, but at least they were noticable. Why can't those two keep that going with any level of consistency? That's on the players, not the coach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3j9BNoH7qU


Just watched this. Ahhh, memories.

X do you feel the Isles should stand pat or be buyers or sellers? I like the idea of trading Frans for a goalie or in a package for a top 4 d-men. I would be surprised if Nelson was not ready.
- ses111

Always buyers... we should not ever be dumping anyone we should at all times upgrading this team for the future. Of course that means no aging vets on their last legs or any player heading into UFA. But if we can get rid of our own UFA's and under preforming talent for players that can help this rebuild for at least 5 more years (im not saying this rebuild is 5 more years away, im just saying adding a player that will be productive for 5 more years.. not a Doug Weight that should have retired 2 years before we got him)
We really aren't far off... an upgrade here & a solid player there & this team is a playoff team. In my humble opinion it starts with a young talented goalie & then a top 4 d-men

XxNYIxX

Agreed that players have to be held accountable for their mistakes, but maybe Tavares and Moulson could have been that much better with another coach. The thing is, Tavares was a can't miss prospect. Moulson is someone who has natural chemistry with said can't miss prospect. Meanwhile, we have a few players who have seemingly regressed over the last few years (Okposo, Bailey and even Hamonic to a lesser extent). I think ultimately the blame falls on the player, GM and coach. For the player, he has to be driven to get better. For the coach, he needs to see if a player is missing things and make suggestions for that player to correct their issues. For the GM, they have to see if that player is simply not catching on and may need a change of scenery. It looks like a failure on all three levels in regards to Bailey and Okposo
- keaner17

I'm not implying (or trying to imply) that Snow and Cappy are blameless for Bailey and KO's immense shortcomings. I've said it all along that Snow reached for Bailey at #9 overall and rushed him to the NHL before he was even close to ready. An argument can be made Snow "rushed" KO by pulling him out of school half-way through his sophmore season. That's not Bailey's or KO's fault. I don't think Cappy is a good coach. I don't think he's a good teacher and that he can "teach" the game to any player. So there is some "blame" there.

If you're looking for a percentage, I don't know how to break that down. But I still think the majority of the blame for the shortcomings of Bailey and KO lie with Bailey and KO.

Always buyers... we should not ever be dumping anyone we should at all times upgrading this team for the future. Of course that means no aging vets on their last legs or any player heading into UFA. But if we can get rid of our own UFA's and under preforming talent for players that can help this rebuild for at least 5 more years (im not saying this rebuild is 5 more years away, im just saying adding a player that will be productive for 5 more years.. not a Doug Weight that should have retired 2 years before we got him)
We really aren't far off... an upgrade here & a solid player there & this team is a playoff team. In my humble opinion it starts with a young talented goalie & then a top 4 d-men

XxNYIxX
- XxNYIxX

Yes no more vets at the end with nothing left. I hope we move guys like Streit, Nabby, Boyes, and Vish? Probably too many moves to expect. I think with some of the young players coming next year and some keys moves in terms of Goalie and top 4 we are not far off. I hope it starts at the deadline and continues in the offseason but I have my doubt we will make any big moves in the offseason.

I'm not implying (or trying to imply) that Snow and Cappy are blameless for Bailey and KO's immense shortcomings. I've said it all along that Snow reached for Bailey at #9 overall and rushed him to the NHL before he was even close to ready. An argument can be made Snow "rushed" KO by pulling him out of school half-way through his sophmore season. That's not Bailey's or KO's fault. I don't think Cappy is a good coach. I don't think he's a good teacher and that he can "teach" the game to any player. So there is some "blame" there.

If you're looking for a percentage, I don't know how to break that down. But I still think the majority of the blame for the shortcomings of Bailey and KO lie with Bailey and KO.
- Jethro09

I get what you're saying. Some players simply can't be helped (see Oleg Kvasha). Yet, when I see players with true developmental issues like Okposo where the guy simply can't skate, doesn't throw the body etc.. that has to fall on the coach and player. It's Okposo's fault for not working harder to get better and it's Cappy's fault for still treating him as though he's a top six forward here while Grabner rots with Marty Reasoner.
In the curious case of Josh Bailey, his development could have fallen to the same issue that Nino did last year (IMO) which is simply being matched with the wrong type talents, thus retarding his growth. I think if Nino plays with Tavares and Moulson last year, we're looking at him in a total different light right now. But instead, Cappy chose to 'develop him' with 5-7 minutes per game on a line with two of the biggest has-been's in the NHL. It set him at least a year back.

When Nino was drafted, most scouts felt he was pretty much NHL ready....by the end of his first season, he looked worse than he did in his first game. I find more fault with Cappy than Nino on that.

Yes no more vets at the end with nothing left. I hope we move guys like Streit, Nabby, Boyes, and Vish? Probably too many moves to expect. I think with some of the young players coming next year and some keys moves in terms of Goalie and top 4 we are not far off. I hope it starts at the deadline and continues in the offseason but I have my doubt we will make any big moves in the offseason.
- ses111

I will be shocked if Snow gets off his fat ass and makes ANY moves at the deadline OR in the offseason.

No moves til Brooklyn.

Actually, I think KO and Bailey have looked much more comfortable in defensive roles. Maybe not what we envisioned, and maybe they could have been more in a different environment, but if they give other teams' top lines fits while also keeping play down in the other end (not allowing other teams' stars to get as much zone time), I'm happy with that. Just gotta hope the next wave picks up the scoring slack...Strome, Nino, etc. I know how that sounds...always looking to the future...but if the current wave finds a nice role on the team, it wasn't all a waste.

Actually, I think KO and Bailey have looked much more comfortable in defensive roles. Maybe not what we envisioned, and maybe they could have been more in a different environment, but if they give other teams' top lines fits while also keeping play down in the other end (not allowing other teams' stars to get as much zone time), I'm happy with that. Just gotta hope the next wave picks up the scoring slack...Strome, Nino, etc. I know how that sounds...always looking to the future...but if the current wave finds a nice role on the team, it wasn't all a waste.
- UIF

I suppose my concern with Bailey is his defensive intensity seems to come and go. At times, he's tenacious in following the play and at others, he's standing upright gliding. About two games ago I yelled at my TV in disgust as I watched Bailey not only back off a player with the puck in our zone but then stand upright and wait for dman to challenge him. I think they play okay defense for offensive forwards, but there in lies the problem....

I get what you're saying. Some players simply can't be helped (see Oleg Kvasha). Yet, when I see players with true developmental issues like Okposo where the guy simply can't skate, doesn't throw the body etc.. that has to fall on the coach and player. It's Okposo's fault for not working harder to get better and it's Cappy's fault for still treating him as though he's a top six forward here while Grabner rots with Marty Reasoner.
In the curious case of Josh Bailey, his development could have fallen to the same issue that Nino did last year (IMO) which is simply being matched with the wrong type talents, thus retarding his growth. I think if Nino plays with Tavares and Moulson last year, we're looking at him in a total different light right now. But instead, Cappy chose to 'develop him' with 5-7 minutes per game on a line with two of the biggest has-been's in the NHL. It set him at least a year back.

When Nino was drafted, most scouts felt he was pretty much NHL ready....by the end of his first season, he looked worse than he did in his first game. I find more fault with Cappy than Nino on that.
- keaner17

I have a hard time believing that. Nino was clearly rushed and mishandled. It happens. Snow rushed him to the NHL roster for his bonus number. Cappy had no idea how to teach him anything so he buried him on the fourth line (and he probably put him on the fourth line because Nino couldn't defend anyone last year). But, you can't tell me that a 19-year old kid was overwhelmed and one of the worst players in the league last year because he played with Reasoner and not JT.

Nino could have played with Gretzky and while he clearly wouldn't have been as bad as he was last year, he wouldn't have been great either. Playing with an elite center doesn't make you play better on the back check or in your own end, two of Nino's glaring faults last year.

I digress. Again, I'm not saying that Snow and Cappy are blameless for the shortcomings of KO and Bailey. I just don't hold them primarily or even the majority responsible for their shortcomings. I primarily hold the player responsible.

I have a hard time believing that. Nino was clearly rushed and mishandled. It happens. Snow rushed him to the NHL roster for his bonus number. Cappy had no idea how to teach him anything so he buried him on the fourth line (and he probably put him on the fourth line because Nino couldn't defend anyone last year). But, you can't tell me that a 19-year old kid was overwhelmed and one of the worst players in the league last year because he played with Reasoner and not JT.

Nino could have played with Gretzky and while he clearly wouldn't have been as bad as he was last year, he wouldn't have been great either. Playing with an elite center doesn't make you play better on the back check or in your own end, two of Nino's glaring faults last year.

I digress. Again, I'm not saying that Snow and Cappy are blameless for the shortcomings of KO and Bailey. I just don't hold them primarily or even the majority responsible for their shortcomings. I primarily hold the player responsible.
- Jethro09

I think it's a combination of things...Buffalo went through a very similar circumstance with Grigorenko. He got some PP time early, but he struggled, and by the end was exiled to the fourth line with marginal players, which did not help him either. They ended up eating the year on the contract and sending him back. Probably the smartest thing they could have done after a series of bad decisions with him.

As far as the type of center Nino needs, I'd argue that, even now, he does in fact need a higher end center. I don't think he'll be a player that can carry a line; I think he'll be an above-average finisher...dangerous in front of the net and in the slot, and tough enough along the boards, but in need of a center that can get him the puck. Put him with Reasoner again, and even though he's bigger, stronger and better now, he'd probably have poor results.

Just take a current player...Moulson, who most people here love for his ability to put the puck in the net. How would he be playing with Pandolfo and Reasoner...a 30-goal scorer still? A defensive wizard? He'd be just about as lost as Nino was, I think. Moulson's a good player with the proper support...and probably not so good without it.

I have a hard time believing that. Nino was clearly rushed and mishandled. It happens. Snow rushed him to the NHL roster for his bonus number. Cappy had no idea how to teach him anything so he buried him on the fourth line (and he probably put him on the fourth line because Nino couldn't defend anyone last year). But, you can't tell me that a 19-year old kid was overwhelmed and one of the worst players in the league last year because he played with Reasoner and not JT.

Nino could have played with Gretzky and while he clearly wouldn't have been as bad as he was last year, he wouldn't have been great either. Playing with an elite center doesn't make you play better on the back check or in your own end, two of Nino's glaring faults last year.

I digress. Again, I'm not saying that Snow and Cappy are blameless for the shortcomings of KO and Bailey. I just don't hold them primarily or even the majority responsible for their shortcomings. I primarily hold the player responsible.
- Jethro09

I can. Taking a kid who has been an offensive player his whole life and even went through training camp on the top line with JT, and then dropping him to play 5-6 minutes with a guy who has 1 goal over the last two seasons, in a defensive role was a DEATH SENTENCE for Nino. While his goal production would have certainly been much better, I'd venture a guess that even JT would have looked pitiful in a role like that in year one. It was one of the worst cases of on ice mishandling of a prospect I can ever recall seeing in nearly 40 years. Which is my point, Nino came out of the World Juniors with a lot of media attention and scouts felt he was ready for the NHL due to his power forward play in the WJC's. So of course we made him a grinding fourth liner....

I understand the idea of teaching a player how to play a two way game, but what they did with Nino was try and teach him to play a one way game...defense only. It was a joke.

I think folks forget just how bad JT was defensively during his first two years. It didn't matter because he was in an offensive role so we only cared if he scored. Still, if he had been put on a line with Reasoner to play 5 minutes of defense per night, the book on him may have been far different during those first two years.
I simply can't stand the idea of taking an offensively talented player like that and trying to make him learn a new role while abandoning his natural talent.

I think it's a combination of things...Buffalo went through a very similar circumstance with Grigorenko. He got some PP time early, but he struggled, and by the end was exiled to the fourth line with marginal players, which did not help him either. They ended up eating the year on the contract and sending him back. Probably the smartest thing they could have done after a series of bad decisions with him.

As far as the type of center Nino needs, I'd argue that, even now, he does in fact need a higher end center. I don't think he'll be a player that can carry a line; I think he'll be an above-average finisher...dangerous in front of the net and in the slot, and tough enough along the boards, but in need of a center that can get him the puck. Put him with Reasoner again, and even though he's bigger, stronger and better now, he'd probably have poor results.

Just take a current player...Moulson, who most people here love for his ability to put the puck in the net. How would he be playing with Pandolfo and Reasoner...a 30-goal scorer still? A defensive wizard? He'd be just about as lost as Nino was, I think. Moulson's a good player with the proper support...and probably not so good without it.
- UIF

I agree Moulson would not be a 30 goal scorer on the 4th line, but on the flip side of that he wouldnt be -29 either.

XxNYIxX

I think folks forget just how bad JT was defensively during his first two years. It didn't matter because he was in an offensive role so we only cared if he scored. Still, if he had been put on a line with Reasoner to play 5 minutes of defense per night, the book on him may have been far different during those first two years.
I simply can't stand the idea of taking an offensively talented player like that and trying to make him learn a new role while abandoning his natural talent.
- keaner17

Thing is.. if we had any depth on this team JT would have started out on the back lines.. but we had no one better then him to put ahead of him. What was done to Nino is not unheard of in this league.. alot of top prospects earn their way up the lineup... i bring it up again.. Joe Thorton was used on the 4th line and only avg 8min a game to help him refine his all around game as well and he was a 1st over all.

XxNYIxX

According to the Chicago blogger the Isles deal is dead. Chicago may be in on JI.

I can. Taking a kid who has been an offensive player his whole life and even went through training camp on the top line with JT, and then dropping him to play 5-6 minutes with a guy who has 1 goal over the last two seasons, in a defensive role was a DEATH SENTENCE for Nino. While his goal production would have certainly been much better, I'd venture a guess that even JT would have looked pitiful in a role like that in year one. It was one of the worst cases of on ice mishandling of a prospect I can ever recall seeing in nearly 40 years. Which is my point, Nino came out of the World Juniors with a lot of media attention and scouts felt he was ready for the NHL due to his power forward play in the WJC's. So of course we made him a grinding fourth liner....

I understand the idea of teaching a player how to play a two way game, but what they did with Nino was try and teach him to play a one way game...defense only. It was a joke.
- keaner17

Your post implies that Nino's -35 or whatever it was and one point in 55 games was 100% Cappy's fault and had nothing to do with the fact that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't NHL ready and should have been in Portland instead. It implies that it was Cappy who is 100% to blame and that none of it falls on Snow, who maybe, just maybe, decided to rush a prospect like Nino to the NHL because his boss was mandating that Snow find anyway possiible to reach the salary floor by spending the least amount of money as possible to get there.

I really think a lot of people on this board over-estimate Nino's abilities and certainly over-estimate what his production "should have been" had he played on one of the top two lines last year. People seem to forget, Nino was an afterthought in the 2010 draft until he had a great WJC. That was when his stock shot up. He never lit it up in the WHL, he was a nice player, but he wasn't setting scoring records.

To think that a kid who was a projected mid to late first round pick in his draft year until a great WJC was ready to set the NHL on fire as a 19 year old based on a solid, but not unbelievable junior hockey career takes some imagination. To think that the only thing that stopped Nino from being a contributor at 19 coming off of a solid, but again not unbelievable, junior career was the idiot coach's act of burying him with Marty Reasoner takes even more imagination.

Im not saying that Nino should have been playing fourth line minutes last year. he shouldn't have been. He shouldn't have been playing NHL minutes at all. He should never have been put in the position he was put in by Snow and should never have been relegated to fourth line minutes by Cappy during one of the most crucial development years of his career.

I hate the idea of trading Martin but you cannot rule it out without hearing the return. I have no problem moving Streit and Boyes.
- ses111

that would be just great. Hawks would put Martin in a scoring role and he'll put in 20 goals. Martin is better than Saad as well as others on the team.

You put a certain player in right role and you'll be suprised.

Martin is way more offensively gifted than Cappy gives him credit for.

joe thornton has no shot off the top of my head...its not just garth.... bailey's shot is good he just doesnt shoot
- NYI78

both Bailey and KO have very hard shots. i agree, both dont use them.

if you look at the goal scorers in league. they put 4-6 shots on net on avg per game.
Bailey and Ko lucky if then even put 4 combined.

Thing is.. if we had any depth on this team JT would have started out on the back lines.. but we had no one better then him to put ahead of him. What was done to Nino is not unheard of in this league.. alot of top prospects earn their way up the lineup... i bring it up again.. Joe Thorton was used on the 4th line and only avg 8min a game to help him refine his all around game as well and he was a 1st over all.

XxNYIxX
- XxNYIxX

Correct, and he had 3 goals 4A in 55 games. Not far off stat wise from Nino....In addition, that was a far better team than last years Islanders. I believe Thornton played with DiMaio and Ted Donato that year. Both were miles ahead of Reasoner and Pandolfo.

[quote=Jethro09]Your post implies that Nino's -35 or whatever it was and one point in 55 games was 100% Cappy's fault and had nothing to do with the fact that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't NHL ready and should have been in Portland instead. It implies that it was Cappy who is 100% to blame and that none of it falls on Snow, who maybe, just maybe, decided to rush a prospect like Nino to the NHL because his boss was mandating that Snow find anyway possiible to reach the salary floor by spending the least amount of money as possible to get there.

quote]

What my post implies was that Nino was not NHL ready for the role he was given and neither would Tavares have been. Don't get me wrong, I didn't even want to draft Nino. But the kid WAS considered capable of making an NHL squad and looked decent during his first 9 game stint when he scored a goal and an assist in limited time and was a-1 prior to being returned to Portland where he dominated. Lots of players actually develop in the NHL but being given the wrong role will do nothing but expose that players shortcomings.

I'm not comparing him in terms of talent, but offensively gifted players are not going to succeed in the 1st year playing on a 4th line with arguably the worst center in the NHL right now. Bear in mind, while Nino was indeed a -29, Reasoner was -25. Jurcina was a -34. Hell our team captain and number one dman was a -27! So we can't pretend that it was only Nino showing up with a terrible +/-. It's not hard to rack up amazingingly bad plus minus stats when your team is near last in the league in goals scored while also giving up the 4th most goals in the league.

Of course we've fallen off the topic here, which is my point with Nino. Not that he's great or will be great, but that by taking a player that young and putting him in a role he wasn't cut out for with linemates that would struggle to score in the AHL, he was set up to fail. Ultimately that blame falls on the GM and coach. So there we are full, circle. I can't blame last year on Nino....I blame it on Cappy and Snow.

Grabner and shoot the puck Bailey score!

Nice rip by bailey

Nice rip by bailey
- Danformo

Holy crap! Annnnd bad penalty on streit.

Grabner and shoot the puck Bailey score!
- ses111

And Reasoner is just terrible