Not ignoring the notion that there may be real better replacements for Coburn. But clearly realizing the key word in that phrase. Which is maybe! That's the whole point. You're ignoring the notion that you could get worse.
- MJL

You could also draft Ristolainen or Nurse and they could turn out to be bums.

There was a risk with signing Bryzgalov, or in firing Lava and replacing him with Murray. Risks in everything.

I'll correct you. I said I would not have traded Richards and Carter. I liked the return from the beginning. And if you're trading a top minute key defenseman, it pretty much has to be instantly. You don't trade Coburn for picks or prospects unless you're dam sure you can replace him.
- MJL

Why is that? Is that your opinion?

You have a different opinion. I know LA doesnt spend as much on their defensive core last year.
- stveshdy

Cost doesn't translate to better or worse. LA has a very good defensive core.

There is a chance you get worse. Also a chance you get much better in the future with the additions of prospects and picks.
- stveshdy

With the situation with this defense as it is. They can't afford to trade Coburn for a chance.

Cost doesn't translate to better or worse. LA has a very good defensive core.
- MJL

Thats part of my point. You can have a good core without spending a ton of money or having big name players.

Assuming what the Flyers gave up for Kubina, they could get some decent picks for Coburn. Or to wait and trade him in the summer as part of a larger deal.

In the larger picture, Coburn is a guy I would look real hard at trading. Thats the point here. That is due to his inability to be consistent, and his career has shown it. For what he is paid, for apparently being in the prime of his career, and an experienced NHL'er, for not knowing how he will play any given night is why I would look real hard at trading him. Its about the larger picture of getting this team to have a better identity. Closer to what Pronger, Lappy and Jagr brought. On a team that is struggling to find consistency, I replace Coburn with guys who better fill that identity.

That may not happen in a day. In the end it will have to be through the draft. There are risks with having Meszaros, Murray and Rundblad definately, and that is not the only option either.
- flyer_nutter

If you replace Coburn with guys that are better, it will cost you more in assets than Coburn will bring back, in all likelihood. That's all I'm saying.

All Murray is, is somebody else's "Coburn" that they want to be rid of.

That's fine. What do these other players cost? Voynov and Leddy are going to be expensive to acquire. Giordano is probably not going to be cheap, either. That offsets the assets acquired in a Coburn trade, if it doesn't cost more.

It has nothing to do with homerism, it has to do with making sure that you're making smart, well thought out decisions, rather than creating a hole out of a personal distaste for a particular player.
- Jsaquella

The homerism has more to do with this being a trend (again not from you), that every player will be defended to no end.

I do not know what those players will cost. I am not Holmgren. I do believe that having a D core that doesnt include Coburn, but uses its money more wisely to improve the 3rd pairing will make this a better team.

With the situation with this defense as it is. They can't afford to trade Coburn for a chance.
- MJL

Why are they winning a cup with Coburn? This team is terrible even with him on it.

Cant ignore the fact of the return and what you can get through free agency and trade to help eat those minutes.

You could also draft Ristolainen or Nurse and they could turn out to be bums.

There was a risk with signing Bryzgalov, or in firing Lava and replacing him with Murray. Risks in everything.
- flyer_nutter

There is no risk in using a draft pick. You pick and player, and he works out or he doesn't. Signing a Free Agent doesn't cost you a player from your roster. If a Coach doesn't work out, then you fire him and hire another. Hardly the same as trading a top defenseman, well, just because.

Why is that? Is that your opinion?
- stveshdy

I have to explain why you need to make sure that you can replace Coburn?

The homerism has more to do with this being a trend (again not from you), that every player will be defended to no end.

I do not know what those players will cost. I am not Holmgren. I do believe that having a D core that doesnt include Coburn, but uses its money more wisely to improve the 3rd pairing will make this a better team.
- flyer_nutter

I just dont think its as simple as saying who replaces him? You have to look at all the additions that are made. The farm system being built with prospects and picks in his deal.

Obviously, moving Coburn and only adding Murray (as example) is going backwards.

Why are they winning a cup with Coburn? This team is terrible even with him on it.

Cant ignore the fact of the return and what you can get through free agency and trade to help eat those minutes.
- stveshdy

Like you, I see them being farther away.

Especially considering that Kimmo will probably not be here after next season.

Coburn is only one player, but is exactly what is wrong with this team. He is not one of the young pups anymore. To me, its time to start replacing players like Coburn, with players that are more consistent, especially for that kind of salary.

I just dont think its as simple as saying who replaces him? You have to look at all the additions that are made. The farm system being built with prospects and picks in his deal.

Obviously, moving Coburn and only adding Murray (as example) is going backwards.
- stveshdy

Obviously.

The big picture needs to be looked at.

Thats part of my point. You can have a good core without spending a ton of money or having big name players.
- stveshdy

You can. I never said otherwise. But one of the teams that you mentioned does have big name players, and has a player with a very high salary. Especially for his age.

I have to explain why you need to make sure that you can replace Coburn?
- MJL

Nope. You just make it like its a today move. Your team needs to get back a player whos better if you move Coburn.

Assuming what the Flyers gave up for Kubina, they could get some decent picks for Coburn. Or to wait and trade him in the summer as part of a larger deal.

In the larger picture, Coburn is a guy I would look real hard at trading. Thats the point here. That is due to his inability to be consistent, and his career has shown it. For what he is paid, for apparently being in the prime of his career, and an experienced NHL'er, for not knowing how he will play any given night is why I would look real hard at trading him. Its about the larger picture of getting this team to have a better identity. Closer to what Pronger, Lappy and Jagr brought. On a team that is struggling to find consistency, I replace Coburn with guys who better fill that identity.

That may not happen in a day. In the end it will have to be through the draft. There are risks with having Meszaros, Murray and Rundblad definately, and that is not the only option either.
- flyer_nutter

Grossman, schenn, and coburn give you next to nothing in way of offense. This mix has to change. Coburn will bring you the biggest haul and provide the most cap relief. I think coburn is better than grossman or schenn. Doesn't mean I'm not looking to make my team better by trading him. I think they can get better

i can't speak for everyone (and i've missed much of this discussion) but i've brought up trading coburn before, so i'll offer my take

at least for me, i'd be going into a coburn trade with the knowledge that the d corp will almost certainly be weaker next season (and maybe for the short term beyond). but the flyers are a last place team with cap woes and the worst (or at least close) farm system in the league. a few steps backward may be necessary to get the team moving forward. and i feel he could be the type of veteran player that could bring back a nice haul of young assets

if all that's offered is a 2nd or middling prospects, however, by all means stick with coburn
- FlyerMike18

Agreed. I however don't see a team parting with a 1st for Coburn right now. I'm sure Edmonton might like him, but no way are they giving up the 1st to do so. It would have to be a draft day move for me, where there is a guy on the board you are ready to commit to. This is the Flyers tho so I highly doubt that would happen.

Why are they winning a cup with Coburn? This team is terrible even with him on it.

Cant ignore the fact of the return and what you can get through free agency and trade to help eat those minutes.
- stveshdy

Quantify the return and specify what you can get through free agency. That is the whole point. Instead of just making general statements. Such as we could get a big return. Well we could get a big return for a lot of players on the team.

You can. I never said otherwise. But one of the teams that you mentioned does have big name players, and has a player with a very high salary. Especially for his age.
- MJL

Honestly, what the hell are we DEBATING here?

Some of us are for looking hard at improvements, and Coburn being the one that is sent out.

You want to keep Coburn? Or is it the fact that you believe a more balanced D-core wouldnt make this team stronger? Big piture.

All the people who predicted L. Schenn would be the scapegoat if this season went awry appear to be incorrect. I don't see anyone bashing Schenn ever.

If you replace Coburn with guys that are better, it will cost you more in assets than Coburn will bring back, in all likelihood. That's all I'm saying.

All Murray is, is somebody else's "Coburn" that they want to be rid of.
- Jsaquella

If lava is back next year they can't come back with the trio of grossman, schenn, and coburn can they?

Grossman, schenn, and coburn give you next to nothing in way of offense. This mix has to change. Coburn will bring you the biggest haul and provide the most cap relief. I think coburn is better than grossman or schenn. Doesn't mean I'm not looking to make my team better by trading him. I think they can get better
- Just5

The Flyers brought in Grossman last year from Dallas fairly cheaply.

He has turned into their best d-man on many nights. If not he is #2 behind Kimmo.

A lot of guys are overrated here imo.

Quantify the return and specify what you can get through free agency. That is the whole point. Instead of just making general statements. Such as we could get a big return. Well we could get a big return for a lot of players on the team.
- MJL

Thats the GM's job to find out what the return is. Also his job to find replacements to eat minutes if Coburn is traded.

I only stated that Coburn would get you a big return compared to Mez.

Nope. You just make it like its a today move. Your team needs to get back a player whos better if you move Coburn.
- stveshdy

I'm looking at the full picture. What is the return, and how do you replace him. All part of the scenario.

Thats the GM's job to find out what the return is. Also his job to find replacements to eat minutes if Coburn is traded.
- stveshdy

Okay them why are you trying to do the GM's job by suggesting they trade Coburn. Isn't it the GM's job also to decide who to trade?