what other example is there other than gratton. that was 15 years ago and things have definitely changed since then.
- sens rock

Outside of Penner it's the only time an offer sheet that resulted in compensation was not matched.

But it's still perfectly legal. What the rule in place prevents is, a team trading a player's rights to another in in the event of an offer sheet.

For instance, say the Leafs sign Erik Karlsson to an OS. The rule prevents the Senators from trading Karlsson's rights to Los Angeles to prevent him from going to Toronto.

And this is where GM's really end up (frank)ing up. Agents get them into these ridiculous deals that end up driving player salaries up. The Weber sheet and ROR sheets were designed to make it difficult for the team to match. Feaster really really over paid on this offer.
- Iggysbff

I disagree, I think it wasn't the worst as far as overpayment goes (the underlying stats really do suggest that O'Reilly was a player worth a non-lottery first and Colorado obviously agreed). The second year pure salary (which nobody should give a poop about BTW, only the AAV matters and $5M was pretty fair) maybe overpaid by about $1-2M, given how he's done and how he was projected based on his age and production. In other words that's often the rate of overpayment for a top UFA (to use an example from the Flames, that's about how much Bouwmeester is overpaid, and he would have gotten that contract anywhere that wanted him I'm pretty sure). And yeah you HAVE to overpay with an offer sheet, otherwise you're just doing the other team a favor.

It was Sherman that (frank)ed up by playing hardball, really if not for the fact that the Russia thing happened (which evidently nobody knew about except Bill Daly) this offer sheet should have happened weeks ago.

LEAVE FEASTER ALONE! He might be reading this thread. Guess you guys never made a mistake!

Give him a break? From the pic you posted he looks like he has taken waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many breaks.

I disagree, I think it wasn't the worst as far as overpayment goes (the underlying stats really do suggest that O'Reilly was a player worth a non-lottery first and Colorado obviously agreed). The second year pure salary (which nobody should give a poop about BTW, only the AAV matters and $5M was pretty fair) maybe overpaid by about $1-2M, given how he's done and how he was projected based on his age and production. In other words that's often the rate of overpayment for a top UFA (to use an example from the Flames, that's about how much Bouwmeester is overpaid, and he would have gotten that contract anywhere that wanted him I'm pretty sure). And yeah you HAVE to overpay with an offer sheet, otherwise you're just doing the other team a favor.

It was Sherman that (frank)ed up by playing hardball, really if not for the fact that the Russia thing happened (which evidently nobody knew about except Bill Daly) this offer sheet should have happened weeks ago.
- S Kaspar Rollins

Non lottery pick? Haha. I see what you did there. Nice.

what other example is there other than gratton. that was 15 years ago and things have definitely changed since then.
- sens rock

"There is also a chance that both sides work out a trade in exchange for Nashville agreeing not to match the offer sheet. In that scenario, the Flyers would send the Predators the four first-round picks, then might get some back if they dealt Nashville some players."

http://www.thestar.com/sp...ing_shea_weber_trade.html

Non lottery pick? Haha. I see what you did there. Nice.
- ruttager17

The Flames aren't in a lottery position right now, and you could easily make the case that adding O'Reilly and having Kipper back later could have propelled them a few points upwards. You can disagree with this - personally, I was disappointed at the time Colorado matched it because I thought it was a risk worth taking, but was very torn in the hours leading up to the match - but there's a solid case to be made. I think if Colorado thought that Calgary was going to be a lottery team they would not have matched.

Although because I'm a pessimist I'm inclined to think that within a week or two we'll be seriously discussing Iggy rumors again, and THEN we can start talking lottery picks.

edit: I stand corrected, Calgary technically IS in a lottery spot right now - they have 18 points, tied with NYI for 5th worst in the league - though it's worth noting Calgary has played less games. But it's not solidified - there isn't a whole lot of difference right now between 20th and 25th (for instance, Edmonton only has 2 more points and are 20th)

I wonder how many GMs knew about that waiver thing with O'Reilly and decided not to offer sheet O'Reilly based on that.

So does Sherman ever deal with Feaster now? I'd like to see if they could make a run at Statsny, since O'Reilly is making too much for 3rd line duty.
- FLflames34

I think if Calgary got Stastny, that would show Colorado's hatred for us.

I think if Calgary got Stastny, that would show Colorado's hatred for us.
- j.henderson

Yeah I wouldn't be in favour. Don't know what happened to the guy but he fell off the face of the earth after signing his big deal.

On the other hand Calgary really really needs some centers.

The Flames aren't in a lottery position right now, and you could easily make the case that adding O'Reilly and having Kipper back later could have propelled them a few points upwards. You can disagree with this - personally, I was disappointed at the time Colorado matched it because I thought it was a risk worth taking, but was very torn in the hours leading up to the match - but there's a solid case to be made. I think if Colorado thought that Calgary was going to be a lottery team they would not have matched.

Although because I'm a pessimist I'm inclined to think that within a week or two we'll be seriously discussing Iggy rumors again, and THEN we can start talking lottery picks.
- S Kaspar Rollins

Well right now the difference between lottery pick and 4th in the conference is about 4 points either way. and in the new rules the teams who do not make the playoffs are all a lottery pick so right now CGY at 25th in the league and 14th in the conference is most definitely a lottery pick under the new and old rules. But yes, I agree, ROR would have for sure made CGY a better team and kipper (the best goalie in the league IMO) is close to coming back so those dynamics would have changed things.

Yeah I wouldn't be in favour. Don't know what happened to the guy but he fell off the face of the earth after signing his big deal.

On the other hand Calgary really really needs some centers.
- S Kaspar Rollins

Not for lack of trying.
Backlund hurt and Cervenka hates being a centre apparently... those things don't help the entire situation.

you guys realize you don't have to qualify players you can just sign them to a new contract...Flames singed Backlund to a deal lower than his qualifier this past summer

Well right now the difference between lottery pick and 4th in the conference is about 4 points either way. and in the new rules the teams who do not make the playoffs are all a lottery pick so right now CGY at 25th in the league and 14th in the conference is most definitely a lottery pick under the new and old rules. But yes, I agree, ROR would have for sure made CGY a better team and kipper (the best goalie in the league IMO) is close to coming back so those dynamics would have changed things.
- ruttager17

Untrue. The league considered doing this but decided not to, at least for this draft http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/story/?id=416279

Anyway, the new system still would heavily weight the odds towards the bottom 5 teams is my understanding.

Well right now the difference between lottery pick and 4th in the conference is about 4 points either way. and in the new rules the teams who do not make the playoffs are all a lottery pick so right now CGY at 25th in the league and 14th in the conference is most definitely a lottery pick under the new and old rules. But yes, I agree, ROR would have for sure made CGY a better team and kipper (the best goalie in the league IMO) is close to coming back so those dynamics would have changed things.
- ruttager17

the new rules have exactly the same odds...basically zero if you aren't a bottom 5 team

I disagree, I think it wasn't the worst as far as overpayment goes (the underlying stats really do suggest that O'Reilly was a player worth a non-lottery first and Colorado obviously agreed). The second year pure salary (which nobody should give a poop about BTW, only the AAV matters and $5M was pretty fair) maybe overpaid by about $1-2M, given how he's done and how he was projected based on his age and production. In other words that's often the rate of overpayment for a top UFA (to use an example from the Flames, that's about how much Bouwmeester is overpaid, and he would have gotten that contract anywhere that wanted him I'm pretty sure). And yeah you HAVE to overpay with an offer sheet, otherwise you're just doing the other team a favor.

It was Sherman that (frank)ed up by playing hardball, really if not for the fact that the Russia thing happened (which evidently nobody knew about except Bill Daly) this offer sheet should have happened weeks ago.
- S Kaspar Rollins

Yes. Feaster REALLY over paid. By using a signing bonus ROR is essentially getting the equivalent of Ovi for this year. To get 2.9 million to play a quarter of a season? Then 6.5 next year? For a guy that should be at 3-4 per year max? Way over paid.

you guys realize you don't have to qualify players you can just sign them to a new contract...Flames singed Backlund to a deal lower than his qualifier this past summer
- flashfire

Dependent on the player agreeing. Most of the time when you do that you have to not qualify them first, ie making them UFAs (as the Flames did with Comeau)

Yes. Feaster REALLY over paid. By using a signing bonus ROR is essentially getting the equivalent of Ovi for this year. To get 2.9 million to play a quarter of a season? Then 6.5 next year? For a guy that should be at 3-4 per year max? Way over paid.
- Iggysbff

yeah giving young guys that have proven nothing big deals is terrible....coming from an Oilers fan

Yes. Feaster REALLY over paid. By using a signing bonus ROR is essentially getting the equivalent of Ovi for this year. To get 2.9 million to play a quarter of a season? Then 6.5 next year? For a guy that should be at 3-4 per year max? Way over paid.
- Iggysbff

People throw around this term too much without applying its actual ramifications. Yes, overpaying happens all the time, you absolutely have to to get players of this caliber. As I've said, that 1-2M overpayment is essentially what a guy like that might have gotten in UFA. On a team like the Flames, absolutely desperate for centers, with a huge upside to ROR, that overpayment is absolutely a risk worth taking. What else could they have spent that money on, exactly?

To me, I only really freak out over overpayment when the guy's contract is clearly preventing you from making other moves. Don't see that happening on a deal like that. For instance, over the offseason many Flames fans wanted to trade Bouwmeester because his contract was a mistake and he is overpaid by about 1-2M. There was never any real reason given other than that; nobody ever said who was going to replace his minutes in the lineup, etc.

People throw around this term too much without applying its actual ramifications. Yes, overpaying happens all the time, you absolutely have to to get players of this caliber. As I've said, that 1-2M overpayment is essentially what a guy like that might have gotten in UFA. On a team like the Flames, absolutely desperate for centers, with a huge upside to ROR, that overpayment is absolutely a risk worth taking. What else could they have spent that money on, exactly?
- S Kaspar Rollins

no kidding do you expect to sign someone to an offer sheet at market value...you are getting a top end player for free FFS

Untrue. The league considered doing this but decided not to, at least for this draft http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/story/?id=416279

Anyway, the new system still would heavily weight the odds towards the bottom 5 teams is my understanding.
- S Kaspar Rollins

Ooops, my bad. So they are just in the bottom 5 of the league right now and get a lottery pick anyways.

Hey wait a tic, go back and re-read that. The bottom 14 teams are all in the draft lottery and have a shot at the first overall instead of just being able to move up 4 spots. so all 14 teams have a shot at number 1. Thanks for proving my point sir.

no kidding do you expect to sign someone to an offer sheet at market value...you are getting a top end player for free FFS
- flashfire

On July 1, virtually every contract is an overpayment, but there's a difference between overpayment and a Bad Contract.

Ooops, my bad. So they are just in the bottom 5 of the league right now and get a lottery pick anyways.
- ruttager17

at the time of the offer they were 22nd with games in hand

Ooops, my bad. So they are just in the bottom 5 of the league right now and get a lottery pick anyways.
- ruttager17

You can't look at those standings right now and tell me that they're set in stone for the end of the season though. I say this as someone who actually wants the Flames to end up in the lottery position. I could see it happening easily - if they keep playing the way they've been playing lately for the next 1-2 weeks, I could see Feaster getting authorization to pull the plug, and it would snowball from there - but it's not guaranteed.

You can't look at those standings right now and tell me that they're set in stone for the end of the season though. I say this as someone who actually wants the Flames to end up in the lottery position.
- S Kaspar Rollins

go back and re-read the edit. all 14 teams in the lottery have a shot at # overall.