I'm sorry, but this is simply laughable.
- triggermartin

I really, really hope he is right, though.

I know the value of Sutter to the Pens, especially with J. Staal gone. I am not saying that Kulemin is as good of a player as Sutter (we're talking potential/ceiling not intangibles or heart).

Having said all that, comes the trade deadline, contenders such as the Pens would overpay to have 2 complete monster top lines and the missing piece of the puzzle would be Kulemin. Besides, Malkin & Kulemin tore it up together in the KHL and their chemistry is undeniable and for that, Pens are willing to over pay for such a responsible 2 way young player who will give Malkin wings to fly.
- hooligoon

Well at the end of the day, let's get real here. Pens traded with Carolina because it was clear JStaal was going nowhere else as a UFA the following summer. Other teams would have been idiots to offer anything of substance. That said, when Carolina knows they're the sole bidder, why would they offer anything off their top two lines or a top prospect? To suggest Pens only wanted Sutter is ridiculous because there is much more I'm sure they would have wanted from Carolina, and weren't going to get it. Sutter is a good two-way forward, no doubt, but don't buy into him being plan A in that trade scenario.

You've gone too far there.

But if we could add a shooting 1st line centre, this team wouldn't be horrible to look at.
- Atomic Wedgie

Maybe. I love James Riemer though.

One thing I can't believe is that if you look at the roster, Toronto should have the worst defense in NHL history.

Except that um, wow.

Franson: Would have laughed at the start of the year if told me he would be so effective. He hits, his shot is good, he moves the puck. He plays like a slightly worse skating Dion. Dion JR. if you will. Sure, his hits aren't as hard, but he is a nice hybred D.

Frasor: What I imagined we were getting when we first signed Komiserik. This guy is pretty solid alround.

Kostka: Since when can a 27 year old rookie step into the NHL and look like an Allstar? Blocks shots, kills penalties, moves the puck, avoids stupid plays, Complimentary PP skills.

HOlzer: The fourth no name guy and he's just as good as the rest of them.


Phanuef and Gardner are your (eventual) foundation, so are Gunnerson and Liles expendable, do you think? How long can the Leafs go with these 4 no name D? Are they good to go or are we going to soon see what should actually happen if you replace 80% of your NHL defenseman with their AHL counterparts?

Well at the end of the day, let's get real here. Pens traded with Carolina because it was clear JStaal was going nowhere else as a UFA the following summer. Other teams would have been idiots to offer anything of substance. That said, when Carolina knows they're the sole bidder, why would they offer anything off their top two lines or a top prospect? To suggest Pens only wanted Sutter is ridiculous because there is much more I'm sure they would have wanted from Carolina, and weren't going to get it. Sutter is a good two-way forward, no doubt, but don't buy into him being plan A in that trade scenario.
- p_zub

Not sure what you're saying here. The Pens also got a first round draft pick (I think it was around the 9-11 range) and a prospect. The Penguins did DAMN well in that trade; they made off like thieves, IMHO.

Maybe. I love James Riemer though.

One thing I can't believe is that if you look at the roster, Toronto should have the worst defense in NHL history.

Except that um, wow.

Franson: Would have laughed at the start of the year if told me he would be so effective. He hits, his shot is good, he moves the puck. He plays like a slightly worse skating Dion. Dion JR. if you will. Sure, his hits aren't as hard, but he is a nice hybred D.

Frasor: What I imagined we were getting when we first signed Komiserik. This guy is pretty solid alround.

Kostka: Since when can a 27 year old rookie step into the NHL and look like an Allstar? Blocks shots, kills penalties, moves the puck, avoids stupid plays, Complimentary PP skills.

HOlzer: The fourth no name guy and he's just as good as the rest of them.


Phanuef and Gardner are your (eventual) foundation, so are Gunnerson and Liles expendable, do you think? How long can the Leafs go with these 4 no name D? Are they good to go or are we going to soon see what should actually happen if you replace 80% of your NHL defenseman with their AHL counterparts?
- Aquaman_2400

I'm starting to feel Liles won't be in the long term plans with the young guys coming up with the Marlies/CHL unless he significantly starts to pick up his game this season.

Here's the other thing: you have to be able to select impact players in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yeah, you just have to get Lidstrom in the late rounds and find somebody who will sell you the farm for all your players over 23 years old.

God. How hard can this be? Figure it out.

I'm sorry, but this is simply laughable.
- triggermartin

ha ha ha let me laugh with you then

Well at the end of the day, let's get real here. Pens traded with Carolina because it was clear JStaal was going nowhere else as a UFA the following summer. Other teams would have been idiots to offer anything of substance. That said, when Carolina knows they're the sole bidder, why would they offer anything off their top two lines or a top prospect? To suggest Pens only wanted Sutter is ridiculous because there is much more I'm sure they would have wanted from Carolina, and weren't going to get it. Sutter is a good two-way forward, no doubt, but don't buy into him being plan A in that trade scenario.
- p_zub

You obviously are not aware of how good he is. Pens got fair value for Staal. Many teams would have offered lots of substance for Staal. I disagree with everything you say here basically. How do you know Carolina was the sole bidder? Suter is not a much worse, if worse at all, player than Staal. Carolina wanted the brothers and they did pretty much offer up one of the prizes of their organization.

I'm starting to feel Liles won't be in the long term plans with the young guys coming up with the Marlies/CHL unless he significantly starts to pick up his game this season.
- p_zub

Agreed

You obviously are not aware of how good he is. Pens got fair value for Staal. Many teams would have offered lots of substance for Staal. I disagree with everything you say here basically. How do you know Carolina was the sole bidder? Suter is not a much worse, if worse at all, player than Staal. Carolina wanted the brothers and they did pretty much offer up one of the prizes of their organization.
- Aquaman_2400

You guys are completely forgetting the 1st round pick and the prospect the Pens also got. The Pens more or less fleeced the Canes.

They also got a first round draft pick (I think it was around the 9-11 range) and a prospect. The Penguins did DAMN well in that trade; they made off like thieves, IMHO.
- triggermartin

I wouldn't quite go that far. They have a 9-11 range under-sized defensive prospect whose potential likely won't be realized for several years, and a solid 3rd line (maybe 2nd line at his peak) centre for a Selke winner and finalist.

I'm starting to feel Liles won't be in the long term plans with the young guys coming up with the Marlies/CHL unless he significantly starts to pick up his game this season.
- p_zub

agreed, by the trade deadline, Liles, MacArthur, Kuli, Grabo, and the usual suspects will possibly be traded for prospects/ picks/ 1# center if TO repeats the collapse they had last year.

You obviously are not aware of how good he is. Pens got fair value for Staal. Many teams would have offered lots of substance for Staal. I disagree with everything you say here basically. How do you know Carolina was the sole bidder? Suter is not a much worse, if worse at all, player than Staal. Carolina wanted the brothers and they did pretty much offer up one of the prizes of their organization.
- Aquaman_2400

Actually it was quoted that Pitts insisted that Sutter be Carolina's centrepiece of the deal

You guys are completely forgetting the 1st round pick and the prospect the Pens also got. The Pens more or less fleeced the Canes.
- triggermartin

Not really. Staal looks pretty good there right now.

If anything I think it was one of those rare times where a team traded the best player in a deal (Staal) yet still got fair value in return.

Maybe. I love James Riemer though.

One thing I can't believe is that if you look at the roster, Toronto should have the worst defense in NHL history.

Except that um, wow.

Franson: Would have laughed at the start of the year if told me he would be so effective. He hits, his shot is good, he moves the puck. He plays like a slightly worse skating Dion. Dion JR. if you will. Sure, his hits aren't as hard, but he is a nice hybred D.

Frasor: What I imagined we were getting when we first signed Komiserik. This guy is pretty solid alround.

Kostka: Since when can a 27 year old rookie step into the NHL and look like an Allstar? Blocks shots, kills penalties, moves the puck, avoids stupid plays, Complimentary PP skills.

HOlzer: The fourth no name guy and he's just as good as the rest of them.


Phanuef and Gardner are your (eventual) foundation, so are Gunnerson and Liles expendable, do you think? How long can the Leafs go with these 4 no name D? Are they good to go or are we going to soon see what should actually happen if you replace 80% of your NHL defenseman with their AHL counterparts?
- Aquaman_2400

I like Reimer, too. And I think he has proven himself as a capable NHL starter (not a star, but a competent starter).

But I'm afraid I don't share your enthusiasm for those other guys. Franson has moments when he looks good, but is soft as they come.

Fraser is okay, but he's being protected. Ditto Holzer. To be effective "shut down" defensemen, they'd have to be able to shut down more than the opponents' third and fourth lines.

Kostka came out of the gate hot, but the league has caught up to him now. Look for his minutes to decline. If Gardiner gets healthy, he's off the PP.

You obviously are not aware of how good he is. Pens got fair value for Staal. Many teams would have offered lots of substance for Staal. I disagree with everything you say here basically. How do you know Carolina was the sole bidder? Suter is not a much worse, if worse at all, player than Staal. Carolina wanted the brothers and they did pretty much offer up one of the prizes of their organization.
- Aquaman_2400

6'4", 220 lb. centre who can score and check.

Obviously the Leafs didn't need him.

Kulemin for Simon Despres.

Not really. Staal looks pretty good there right now.

If anything I think it was one of those rare times where a team traded the best player in a deal (Staal) yet still got fair value in return.
- daeth

I guess I mean fleeced in the sense that they only had 1 trading partner, with no one else to drive up the price. In that scenario, the Pens did fantastically well.

I wouldn't quite go that far. They have a 9-11 range under-sized defensive prospect whose potential likely won't be realized for several years, and a solid 3rd line (maybe 2nd line at his peak) centre for a Selke winner and finalist.
- p_zub

You seem to have some seriously strong opinions on Brandon Suter but based on what you are saying I am not sure you have ever watched him play.

I am not saying I would do Staal for Suter straight up, but if you are going to play Suter on the third line he is going to be probably the best third line centre in hockey. So utility wise, you lost nothing while gaining the afformentioned other pieces of the trade and allowing you to fit Crosby, Neil, Malkin, Fleury and Letang in under the cap.

When you think about it, PGH should win the Cup this year by a mile. I know the games have to actually be played but they are - at least on paper - miles ahead of the next best teams whether thats St.Louis or Chicago, Vancouver or SJ.

agreed, by the trade deadline, Liles, MacArthur, Kuli, Grabo, and the usual suspects will possibly be traded for prospects/ picks/ 1# center if TO repeats the collapse they had last year.
- hooligoon

In my humble opinion, you can't trade Grabbo until you get a true #1 centre.

His value to the Leafs is greater than his value on the open market.

And he's paid that way.

I wouldn't quite go that far. They have a 9-11 range under-sized defensive prospect whose potential likely won't be realized for several years, and a solid 3rd line (maybe 2nd line at his peak) centre for a Selke winner and finalist.
- p_zub

Yeah, I'm not a huge J.Staal booster, but I actually thought the asking price for him ended up being lower than expected.

Actually it was quoted that Pitts insisted that Sutter be Carolina's centrepiece of the deal
- JIMI-JAMES

And it became such a sticking point that Carolina also gave up a top-10 1st rounder and a third prospect? He was more expendable by the Hurricanes than people realize.

You obviously are not aware of how good he is. Pens got fair value for Staal. Many teams would have offered lots of substance for Staal. I disagree with everything you say here basically. How do you know Carolina was the sole bidder? Suter is not a much worse, if worse at all, player than Staal. Carolina wanted the brothers and they did pretty much offer up one of the prizes of their organization.
- Aquaman_2400

They were the sole bidder because it was pretty well known that Staal wasn't going to sign with anyone but Carolina if he made it to free agency.

Kulemin for Simon Despres.
- ThePresident

I would take either Adams or Kennedy or Niskanen for Kulemin and call it a win. But PGh would most likely tell us to Frack ourselves.

In my humble opinion, you can't trade Grabbo until you get a true #1 centre.

His value to the Leafs is greater than his value on the open market.

And he's paid that way.
- Atomic Wedgie

If anyone thinks we're thin at centre now, remove Grabo from the equation.