Maybe not but his knees were getting worse and his mobility was becoming an issue too.
- Stinkfitz

So full cage while he played, and bubble wrap between games?

GID McCrossin

say Holmgren DID pick a dman this year at that same spot...do you think we'd really have someone that could fix our defensive woes NOW? The Flyers, for better or for worse, have always tried to be as creative as possible to fix immediate issues and team concerns. they saw a hole in the organization less in legit blue chip defensive prospects, but with top tier NHL defenseman. hence the moves to try and land Suter and Weber.

the flyers historically have never developed young dmen for some reason. if someone wants to throw their 2 cents in to why that is, i'm all ears, but i don't know. they can/will, however, make power moves to land big time players (Pronger/Weber). i don't get all these people looking back and complaining about the last 2 drafts....dmen take longer to develop anyway! instead of having the prospects to potentially help in 2 years, the flyers wanted the big guns in the NHL NOW.

1 in hand is worth 2 in the bush, as they say....


it's also funny some of these same people complaining that they haven't drafted D are second guessing the JVR trade.
- eshake

The point is, you have to plan for the future, not just live in the present and / or mortgage the future. I will say that Holmgren is much better at not mortgaging the future than his predecessor.

But let's face it...we haven't won a championshp since I was a wee lad so perhaps they should try something different. The Flyers have never been a patient organization, but they have had success in drafting young forwards and developing them (carter, richards, g, gagne, etc.). Maybe they need to start developing d-men, because unfortunately acquiring a middle to top d-men seems to cost a lot more than a comparable forward today.

I've never ragged on the Schenn/JVR trade by the way. But if you believe we overpaid, it illustrates my point...dmen are of a higher value.

i have total understanding of homer's failure to set us up better on the backline. reality is proof...
- isaiah520

failure in what sense? Didnt he go out and add guys like Pronger, Meszy, Coburn, Carle, Timonen, Schenn? Didnt he also attempt to get guys like Suter, Weber, Hamhuis?

If anything, he was wildly succesful, but now is in need of rebuilding that area. If there is one position that Homer truly focuses on.. its defense.

The Flyers didn't lack foresight in those deals. Unless you think that Holmgren should've predicted Pronger getting a career ending injury. That is revisionist history. The current status of the defense doesn't all of a sudden make those deals bad deals. That's ridiculous.
You're prespective is that this team's window is closing, instead of what it really is. Which is just opening. This team is not a finished product. And nobody beleives that it is. Except maybe the national commentator that forms your opinions. That national commentator is who lacks foresight.
When you make the deals the Flyers made. It requires a number of things. One of them is patience. Some don't have it I guess.
Bryzgalov is 32 years old. Goalies routinely play into their late 30's.
Look at the defenseman that Holmgren has acquired. Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn. Seems as though Holmgren knows how to acquire defenseman.
And the Flyers when healthy have plenty of scoring depth. They have young players that need to develop and grow. That again takes patience.
The Statement that Holmgren needs to go back to scouting is off base. He's a solid GM. Give it some time and see what happens.
- MJL

I tend to agree with you there. They had a healthy Pronger (although he had knee issues), a healthy Timonen, Carle, Coburn and Meszaros when they traded Carter and Richards. Pronger and Timonen were getting older but I think most of us expected at least 2 or 3 years of good hockey, not passable, from one if not both. It also needs to be said that Columbus had basically zero high end defensive prospects at the time and I doubt we would have been able to get a top 10 pick plus a Voracek type player and a 3rd for Carter anywhere else. I think the idea behind acquiring Simmonds from LA was to try and replace some of the scoring lost by both guys as well as the grit lost from Richards. Schenn was probably the best prospect LA was willing to move at the time.

i could be wrong, but i believe that schenn had more value at that time and i also think that the jvr trade wouldn't have happened if we had traded for the right type of dman to begin with. i don't dislike luke, but i think jvr was worth more and as bill so clearly outlined, luke added to this mix does nothing to address the puck moving issues.

it was like, "well they all want couts for a puck mover- no way. so i'll just move jvr for luke schenn" what?!
- isaiah520

They were discussing JvR for Luke Schenn during the season. It sure seems that the Flyers liked Schenn for awhile and didn't just move for him for poops and giggles.

I also doubt that they're done making moves. With all the effort to land Suter, Parise and Weber it's a clear indication that, despite what Holmgren says, he's not going to shy away from trying to address needs.

That he hasn;t done it yet likely means that the costs are too high right now.

Werent they both rumored being traded from Toronto to the flyers for Eric Lindros way back when?
- Stinkfitz

Antropov was for sure...not sure about Ponikarovsky

Wouldn't trading one of the assets acquired in the Carter and Richards trades be along the lines of doing what you wanted anyhow? Obviously, if they had acquired a defenseman initially in one of those deals, they would not have received the players or picks that they did.

So, what's the rub if they trade one of those assets now for a defenseman?
- Jsaquella

Logic overload.

They will have long term cap issues soon enough. They have 7 forwards under contract for next year. They have Bogosian, Wheeler, Burmistrov and Little to re-sign this summer as RFAs. They will have to re-sign or replace UFAs Ponikarovsky, Antropov and Hainsey.

As usual, future cap space means that you'll have to re-sign a lot of guys.
- Jsaquella

Bogo and wheeler will be resigned, burmi shouldn't cost too much hes good but not great yet. I dont think little kits into their long term plans. I do think they will resign ponikarovsky anti and Hainsey.

This is the off season we find out what chevy is made of..

i could be wrong, but i believe that schenn had more value at that time and i also think that the jvr trade wouldn't have happened if we had traded for the right type of dman to begin with. i don't dislike luke, but i think jvr was worth more and as bill so clearly outlined, luke added to this mix does nothing to address the puck moving issues.

it was like, "well they all want couts for a puck mover- no way. so i'll just move jvr for luke schenn" what?!
- isaiah520

they traded JvR for Luke Schenn to address a different need, not just IGNORING another potential need. Schenn provides a YOUNG physical presence on the backline with a right handed shot. that was just as much of a red flag to the flyers brass after the Devil's series, no?

The Flyers had a SURPLUS of talented young forwards, but lacked what Schenn brings.

Then Homer tried to ALSO fill another issue for a top puck moving dman in throwing MORE MONEY at Suter. what else could he have done in that scenario?

How is he boxed in? Every team that has ever been developed, has had to make key acquisitions, and trade good assets to acquire some of the peices it's needed. No team is perfect in drafting and filling every position. Your position is extremely pessimistic and lacks understanding in how teams are built.
- MJL

Your not mentioning the insane amount of key injuries we have suffered in the last 2 years. Every team has them but they are almost impossible to plan for..

Maybe not but his knees were getting worse and his mobility was becoming an issue too.
- Stinkfitz

His mobility was an issue? Damn where was I? There may not have been a wiser d-man in the league than Pronger. He knew he wasnt 25 any more.. so he changed his game. He used to be a chaser.. going after every play, delivering huge hits, and pinching and jumping on the puck.. He changed his style. He was nearly flawless positionally.. he was incredibly wise in picking his spots.. he would have had no problem playing out that contract.


EDIT: Nik Lidstrom... that it.

we can hope for a change, but i'm not a hopey, changy kinda guy
- isaiah520

What is that from LOL

I've never ragged on the Schenn/JVR trade by the way. But if you believe we overpaid, it illustrates my point...dmen are of a higher value.
- TheGreat28

how does that illustrate your point if you believe WE overpaid. Dmen can be of higher value (as i believe it was in THIS particular scenario).

Bogo and wheeler will be resigned, burmi shouldn't cost too much hes good but not great yet. I dont think little kits into their long term plans. I do think they will resign ponikarovsky anti and Hainsey.

This is the off season we find out what chevy is made of..
- flyers4487

Bogo and Wheeler alone are due big raises. Even if Little doesn't fit long term, they'll have to sign him or trade his rights for somebody under contract. Burmistrov could see a decent bump, too, even though he really hasn't played up to his potential.

The Flyers didn't lack foresight in those deals. Unless you think that Holmgren should've predicted Pronger getting a career ending injury. That is revisionist history. The current status of the defense doesn't all of a sudden make those deals bad deals. That's ridiculous.
You're prespective is that this team's window is closing, instead of what it really is. Which is just opening. This team is not a finished product. And nobody beleives that it is. Except maybe the national commentator that forms your opinions. That national commentator is who lacks foresight.
When you make the deals the Flyers made. It requires a number of things. One of them is patience. Some don't have it I guess.
Bryzgalov is 32 years old. Goalies routinely play into their late 30's.
Look at the defenseman that Holmgren has acquired. Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn. Seems as though Holmgren knows how to acquire defenseman.
And the Flyers when healthy have plenty of scoring depth. They have young players that need to develop and grow. That again takes patience.
The Statement that Holmgren needs to go back to scouting is off base. He's a solid GM. Give it some time and see what happens.
- MJL

Maybe not but his knees were getting worse and his mobility was becoming an issue too.
- Stinkfitz

Yea but he would still be playing...I totally think its retarded d men who block shots dont wear cages..I know the culture bla bla bla. I guess thats a debate for another day.

Yea but he would still be playing...I totally think its retarded d men who block shots dont wear cages..I know the culture bla bla bla. I guess thats a debate for another day.
- flyers4487

cage or a shield?

i have total understanding of homer's failure to set us up better on the backline. reality is proof...
- isaiah520

Failure how? He threw hundreds of millions of dollars at Weber, Suter, and Parise and lost out. You can't say he hasn't tried to bring in a franchise Dman. But it's easier said than done. And giving up half of your offensive prospect is NOT the way to go about it. Yeah, you may be better on D, but then you're going to have an offensive problem. There needs to be a balance. And to this point, there's really nothing Homer can do that he hasn't tried, unless you want him to sell the farm for one guy...

What do you suggest he do? Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk will be re-signed... Yandle isn't leaving Phoenix unless Homer gets robbed in the deal. J-Bo is washed up, overpaid, and streaky. Enstrom is re-signed. Nashville isn't going to trade Weber after giving him the bonus, not to mention they will want way too much in return again... Carle, imo, got more than he was worth, so I'm glad Homer didn't throw the money at him - but the market determined it. Buffalo isn't parting with Myers... Tampa isn't parting with Hedman.. Ottawa isn't parting with Karlsson..

Granted, maybe he could have done more over the years in developing better dmen through the system, or drafting a hyped dman... But some of you expect to have all of the best players in the league, and fit it under the cap... all without giving up any major assets. That's called the All-Star game.. not reality.

they traded JvR for Luke Schenn to address a different need, not just IGNORING another potential need. Schenn provides a YOUNG physical presence on the backline with a right handed shot. that was just as much of a red flag to the flyers brass after the Devil's series, no?

The Flyers had a SURPLUS of talented young forwards, but lacked what Schenn brings.

Then Homer tried to ALSO fill another issue for a top puck moving dman in throwing MORE MONEY at Suter. what else could he have done in that scenario?
- eshake

In regards to the Luke Schenn trade, I think it was pretty even (close enough that the margin of value won or lost is negligible). An ugly thought is, can you imagine this team with one less top 4 forward? Gervais would literally be one of our top 4 defensemen right now, and not just by virtue of handedness. We definitely need some puck movement, but I'm glad we got a young, physical fixture on our blueline in the meantime.

Bogo and Wheeler alone are due big raises. Even if Little doesn't fit long term, they'll have to sign him or trade his rights for somebody under contract. Burmistrov could see a decent bump, too, even though he really hasn't played up to his potential.
- Jsaquella

Bermi is so frustrating to watch, you see flashes of what he can do then he has a brain fart for a few games. Hes like a better downie with less anger issues haha.

I agree bogo and Wheeler are due big raises, but I see bogo making more money then Wheeler, IMO he has more upside and I could see Wheeler taking a hometown discount to stay as he just moved his family to Minny.

cage or a shield?
- jak521

Whatever prevents the puck from slamming into Prongers face

Failure how? He threw hundreds of millions of dollars at Weber, Suter, and Parise and lost out. You can't say he hasn't tried to bring in a franchise Dman. But it's easier said than done. And giving up half of your offensive prospect is NOT the way to go about it. Yeah, you may be better on D, but then you're going to have an offensive problem. There needs to be a balance. And to this point, there's really nothing Homer can do that he hasn't tried, unless you want him to sell the farm for one guy...

What do you suggest he do? Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk will be re-signed... Yandle isn't leaving Phoenix unless Homer gets robbed in the deal. J-Bo is washed up, overpaid, and streaky. Enstrom is re-signed. Nashville isn't going to trade Weber after giving him the bonus, not to mention they will want way too much in return again... Carle, imo, got more than he was worth, so I'm glad Homer didn't throw the money at him - but the market determined it. Buffalo isn't parting with Myers... Tampa isn't parting with Hedman.. Ottawa isn't parting with Karlsson..

Some of you expect to have all of the best players in the league, and fit it under the cap... all without giving up any major assets. That's called the All-Star game.. not reality.
- WarriorHockey21

Here the funny thing though... He did that.. exactly that. He got us Pronger. He got us Timonen. He got us Coburn, Meszy, Carle, Grossmann, Schenn. People female dog and female dog and female dog... but one thing Homer HAS definitely done.. Gotten us great d-men.

Whatever prevents the puck from slamming into Prongers face
- flyers4487

it was a stick that hit him in the face, but regardless..

Discussing who they should have drafted is a different matter. There are plenty of highly drafted defensemen that get outperformed by guys taken rounds later.


Also, the pipeline after Gostisbehere isn't empty. In the NCAA ranks they have Mark Alt and Reece Willcox. Willcox is a Freshman who has played solidly Cornell. Alt was acquired from Carolina in the Boucher trade and is seen as a solid prospect.

That also ignores Gustafsson and Manning in the AHL.
- Jsaquella

Same can be said for forwards. The point is, if you don't have a hand in the poker game you're not going home with the pot. To me Laughton will likely be a solid 3rd line checking center. The cost of acquiring a comparable player is a LOT lower than acquiring a 3-4 dman, or especially a 1-2 dman.

I'll defer to your knowledge of the game any and every time Jsaq. Are ANY of the guys you named really projected to be higher than a 5-6, other than Ghost? The guys I named (a lot of us wanted in the draft, including you if I recall) are likely 3-4 guys (maybe best case could be a 2).

And I'm not really not trying to argue about it, and don't really buy into Isaiah's side of the discussion either. I'm more in the middle - not so bleak but without a better, sustainable plan for the d I'm not sure they go far. And like you, I mostly worry about them doing something really rash (and stupid), and trading a Read or Simmonds for some 34 year old rental player.

it was a stick that hit him in the face, but regardless..
- jak521

if only he had been in sneakers instead of skates