Also, lets not lose sight of the fact that people are throwing around some pretty ridiculous names here. You don't just go out and get a Teows-like player or a Giroux-like player. Teams don't give guys like that up and they certainly wouldn't do it to get Kessel. Lets pretend for a second that Nonis could get a guy like Getzlaf for Kessel. Now we've got that big power forward center that everyone is begging for but he's got no one to play with. We did that with Sundin, it was ugly.
- Jeffmt

Thats logical. Too logical for this thread.

Guess we have to trade Kadri and Frattin now. They're producing too much, its (frank)ing the whole plan for last up.

I'm not so sure about that. People put a lot of stock these days into kids who have never played against anyone older than themselves. Two years ago lots of people would have said they'd rather have Braydon Schenn over Kessel. Right now, I'd take Kessel. A year ago Mackinnon was supposed to be the second coming and now he's not even the consensus #1 pick. A year ago Drouin was barely on the radar. Getting rid of a young 35 goal sniper for just a chance at these kids is an enormous risk.
- Jeffmt

And yet, if you look at the 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall picks from 2005 until 2012, you'll see a long list of players the Leafs missed out on because they refused to just sink to the bottom.

Would you rather have Kessel or the next Stamkos that pops up down the road?

It's a sacrifice worth making.

It's the main piece. Signing a high talent guy to a huge contract makes him the guy. That's usually the way it works. This team can't do the work it needs to do by keeping him. They will constantly be trying to push for 8th place and keeping themselves away from the bottom.
- Two_For_Truth

Thats not usually how it works. So when the Caps signed Backstrom he was the main piece? When the Pens signed Neal, he was the main piece? When the Hawks signed Kane, he was the main piece? etc etc etc

Teams that are successful have more than a couple of very talented players, it doesnt mean that each one of them is thee main piece. There are such things as key pieces as well as the main piece. Thats usually the way it works.

I'm not so sure about that. People put a lot of stock these days into kids who have never played against anyone older than themselves. Two years ago lots of people would have said they'd rather have Braydon Schenn over Kessel. Right now, I'd take Kessel. A year ago Mackinnon was supposed to be the second coming and now he's not even the consensus #1 pick. A year ago Drouin was barely on the radar. Getting rid of a young 35 goal sniper for just a chance at these kids is an enormous risk.
- Jeffmt

Im not saying trade him to suck. Just saying if we got a nice package of prospects/picks id take it. I have no problem with phil being on my team. I just see him walking after next year, don't you? Im not trying to tank either, im just saying i dont have high expectations for the leafs i see them surprising people like ottowa did or dead last thats just the way i see it.

And yet, if you look at the 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall picks from 2005 until 2012, you'll see a long list of players the Leafs missed out on because they refused to just sink to the bottom.

Would you rather have Kessel or the next Stamkos that pops up down the road?

It's a sacrifice worth making.
- Two_For_Truth

Live JVR?

poop yes, we do.

But lets not forget the Hawks didnt win just because they had Toews. They are successful because they built around him. You know, like Kane, Sharp, Hossa.
- systemtool

I get that, but Kessel isn't THE GUY"to build around."

Raw OFFENSIVE talent, yes, but that's pretty much where it ends:

- Does not possess leadership skills/qualities - CHECK!
- Is not respected - CHECK!
- Other players don't look up to him - CHECK!
- RARELY takes control of games - CHECK!
- Easily intimidated - CHECK!
- Easily frustrated - CHECK!
- Does not stick up for team mates - CHECK!
- Is not tough - CHECK!
- Can be easily contained - CHECK!
- Can be easily eliminated from the game to become non-factor - CHECK!
- Goes on huge goalless streaks - CHECK!
- Is not defensively responsible - CHECK!
- RARELY backchecks - CHECK!
- Isn't all that "likeable" - CHECK!
- Isn't the face of the Leafs - CHECK!
- Leafs aren't identified as "Phil's team" - CHECK!

Shall I continue?...

In short, Kessel is the NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the complete player that the Leafs need him to be.

Kessel is a COM·PLE·MEN·TA·RY player.

Im not saying trade him to suck. Just saying if we got a nice package of prospects/picks id take it. I have no problem with phil being on my team. I just see him walking after next year, don't you?
- LEAFSfan28191

If thats the case, then obviously you trade him before he walks. But until we know that for certain, we shouldnt be having this discussion.

I get that, but Kessel isn't THE GUY"to build around."

Raw OFFENSIVE talent, yes, but that's pretty much where it ends:

- Does not possess leadership skills/qualities - CHECK!
- Is not respected - CHECK!
- Other players don't look up to him - CHECK!
- RARELY takes control of games - CHECK!
- Easily intimidated - CHECK!
- Easily frustrated - CHECK!
- Does not stick up for team mates - CHECK!
- Is not tough - CHECK!
- Can be easily contained - CHECK!
- Can be easily eliminated from the game to become non-factor - CHECK!
- Goes on huge goalless streaks - CHECK!
- Is not defensively responsible - CHECK!
- RARELY backchecks - CHECK!
- Isn't all that "likeable" - CHECK!
- Isn't the face of the Leafs - CHECK!
- Leafs aren't identified as "Phil's team" - CHECK!

Shall I continue?...

In short, Kessel is the NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the complete player that the Leafs need him to be.

Kessel is a COM·PLE·MEN·TA·RY player.
- As_I_See_It

I agree he isnt the guy. But that doesnt mean we still dont need players of Kessels skill to surround "that guy" with, should we somehow get him.

I never once said he was a complete player or "the guy". Ive said he should remain with the team, but the team should still do all they can to find "the guy"

I get that, but Kessel isn't THE GUY"to build around."

Raw OFFENSIVE talent, yes, but that's pretty much where it ends:

- Does not possess leadership skills/qualities - CHECK!
- Is not respected - CHECK!
- Other players don't look up to him - CHECK!
- RARELY takes control of games - CHECK!
- Easily intimidated - CHECK!
- Easily frustrated - CHECK!
- Does not stick up for team mates - CHECK!
- Is not tough - CHECK!
- Can be easily contained - CHECK!
- Can be easily eliminated from the game to become non-factor - CHECK!
- Goes on huge goalless streaks - CHECK!
- Is not defensively responsible - CHECK!
- RARELY backchecks - CHECK!
- Isn't all that "likeable" - CHECK!
- Isn't the face of the Leafs - CHECK!
- Leafs aren't identified as "Phil's team" - CHECK!

Shall I continue?...

In short, Kessel is the NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the complete player that the Leafs need him to be.

Kessel is a COM·PLE·MEN·TA·RY player.
- As_I_See_It

I like this guy.

I agree he isnt the guy. But that doesnt mean we still dont need players of Kessels skill to surround "that guy" with, should we somehow get him.
- systemtool

Please can bozak go on the third line or something??? I dont understand how Kads doesnt get a shot to play with phil. He's so creative and could get phil the puck so much, and JVR infront of the net

Im not saying trade him to suck. Just saying if we got a nice package of prospects/picks id take it. I have no problem with phil being on my team. I just see him walking after next year, don't you?
- LEAFSfan28191

I just doubt we'll get fair value for him. Right or wrong, Phil has a stigma around the league and other GMs will use that against Nonis. They'll say the same stuff that everyone around here is saying. I guarantee that trading Kessel will be taking a huge step back. I guess for some people that's the point and they're entitled to that opinion.

At the end of the day though, the trade might have to be made anyway. If I was Kessel I wouldn't stay in Toronto a day longer than I have to, given the way he's been treated. If Nonis can't lock him up in the summer, he'll have to go. By the way, resigning Kessel would no doubt require resigning Bozak. That's sure to rile up some people too.

Please can bozak go on the third line or something??? I dont understand how Kads doesnt get a shot to play with phil. He's so creative and could get phil the puck so much, and JVR infront of the net
- LEAFSfan28191

I agree with this.

Thats not usually how it works. So when the Caps signed Backstrom he was the main piece? When the Pens signed Neal, he was the main piece? When the Hawks signed Kane, he was the main piece? etc etc etc

Teams that are successful have more than a couple of very talented players, it doesnt mean that each one of them is thee main piece. There are such things as key pieces as well as the main piece. Thats usually the way it works.
- systemtool

You are so far off on this...

Neal was signed way after Crosby. And Malkin. The highest paid guys who are obviously the main pieces to that team. Toews and Kane are the two highest paid guys and yes, they are the main pieces, more so Toews than Kane though. The LA Kings have Doughty and Kopitar at nearly 7 million each. Both two solid guys worth building around. They are the go-to guys.

Then you look at teams like Tampa Bay who made the mistake of grossly overpaying Lecavalier and now he's a burden on their team. Now they have to build around Stamkos but Lecavalier is crippling their budget and cap situation.

Signing Kessel to a huge deal sets off a series of events to accommodate him. Everything they do is based on him because he's the most talented player they have. When you do that with the right guy, you have a shot at winning something. When you do it with Kessel, you end up being a low seed, 1st round exit team.

I get that, but Kessel isn't THE GUY"to build around."

Raw OFFENSIVE talent, yes, but that's pretty much where it ends:

- Does not possess leadership skills/qualities - CHECK!
- Is not respected - CHECK!
- Other players don't look up to him - CHECK!
- RARELY takes control of games - CHECK!
- Easily intimidated - CHECK!
- Easily frustrated - CHECK!
- Does not stick up for team mates - CHECK!
- Is not tough - CHECK!
- Can be easily contained - CHECK!
- Can be easily eliminated from the game to become non-factor - CHECK!
- Goes on huge goalless streaks - CHECK!
- Is not defensively responsible - CHECK!
- RARELY backchecks - CHECK!
- Isn't all that "likeable" - CHECK!
- Isn't the face of the Leafs - CHECK!
- Leafs aren't identified as "Phil's team" - CHECK!

Shall I continue?...

In short, Kessel is the NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the complete player that the Leafs need him to be.

Kessel is a COM·PLE·MEN·TA·RY player.
- As_I_See_It

And he gets paid like a complementary player. He's not an $8M guy. Most teams would love to have a complimentary player with Kessel's skill.

I agree he isnt the guy. But that doesnt mean we still dont need players of Kessels skill to surround "that guy" with, should we somehow get him.

I never once said he was a complete player or "the guy". Ive said he should remain with the team, but the team should still do all they can to find "the guy"
- systemtool

Unfortunately, Kessel came at the wrong time. You can't have Kessel before you have "that guy" because Kessel prevents you from being in a good enough spot to draft "that guy". Kessel also forces the team to accommodate him and surround him with more players that just bring the team closer to mediocrity.

So, what you do is, you trade Kessel for as much as you can, you sink to the bottom, you draft "that guy" and then you worry about acquiring another guy like Kessel in four or five years when the time is right.

The time isn't right for Kessel on this team. It never was.

I agree he isnt the guy. But that doesnt mean we still dont need players of Kessels skill to surround "that guy" with, should we somehow get him.
- systemtool

Sure, but aside from all the issues I've just listed, there are also a couple MASSIVE issues surrounding Kessel:

A. He could potential walk for nothing and that would be a HUGE CLUSTER (frank) DISASTER for the Leafs

or

B. Are you really sure that overpaying (because that's what the Leafs will have to do!) for Kessel in the neighborhood of $7.5M to $8M is a good idea?

I just doubt we'll get fair value for him. Right or wrong, Phil has a stigma around the league and other GMs will use that against Nonis. They'll say the same stuff that everyone around here is saying. I guarantee that trading Kessel will be taking a huge step back. I guess for some people that's the point and they're entitled to that opinion.

At the end of the day though, the trade might have to be made anyway. If I was Kessel I wouldn't stay in Toronto a day longer than I have to, given the way he's been treated. If Nonis can't lock him up in the summer, he'll have to go. By the way, resigning Kessel would no doubt require resigning Bozak. That's sure to rile up some people too.
- Jeffmt

Valid point. Id try to get him signed this summer, if you cant you got to start taking in offers, before the season starts to get a decent return. Your not gonna get much if it drags on to the trade deadline and we have no playoff spot. But if we do have a playoff spot ya need to keep him.

And he gets paid like a complementary player. He's not an $8M guy. Most teams would love to have a complimentary player with Kessel's skill.
- Jeffmt

He's not paid that much yet. Just wait until his contract is up and he has UFA status available to him.

And he gets paid like a complementary player. He's not an $8M guy. Most teams would love to have a complimentary player with Kessel's skill.
- Jeffmt

For now.

The Leafs need to move him THIS YEAR, because he's not an $8M guy (as you say) and that's likely what it's going to take!

You are so far off on this...

Neal was signed way after Crosby. And Malkin. The highest paid guys who are obviously the main pieces to that team. Toews and Kane are the two highest paid guys and yes, they are the main pieces, more so Toews than Kane though. The LA Kings have Doughty and Kopitar at nearly 7 million each. Both two solid guys worth building around. They are the go-to guys.

Then you look at teams like Tampa Bay who made the mistake of grossly overpaying Lecavalier and now he's a burden on their team. Now they have to build around Stamkos but Lecavalier is crippling their budget and cap situation.

Signing Kessel to a huge deal sets off a series of events to accommodate him. Everything they do is based on him because he's the most talented player they have. When you do that with the right guy, you have a shot at winning something. When you do it with Kessel, you end up being a low seed, 1st round exit team.
- Two_For_Truth

All successful teams have more than one elite player. Its about building a team, and you dont throw away guys who finish 6th in scoring just because you dont have someone better than him. It doesnt matter who was signed first or last. What matters is that you still search for that player to build around, but keep the little talent you do have to surround that player when he comes in.

You're assuming Toronto shuts its doors to top end talent because they have Kessel. Thats just absurd.

For now.

The Leafs need to move him THIS YEAR, because he's not an $8M guy (as you say) and that's likely what it's going to take!
- As_I_See_It

Yes, thats when you trade him. When either doesnt want to resign, or wants insane amounts. Until thats a fact, you dont just trade him over assumptions. Especially just so you can finish lower in the standings.

All successful teams have more than one elite player. Its about building a team, and you dont throw away guys who finish 6th in scoring just because you dont have someone better than him. It doesnt matter who was signed first or last. What matters is that you still search for that player to build around, but keep the little talent you do have to surround that player when he comes in.
- systemtool

Again, Kessel just keeps this team mediocre. He doesn't allow the Leafs to sink low enough to get the guy they really need nor does he fit the bill of the guy they need. He just keeps them in limbo.

You're assuming Toronto shuts its doors to top end talent because they have Kessel. Thats just absurd.

You're assuming top end talent just appears out of thin air rather than trading the assets they have to help them acquire what they really need.

Sure, but aside from all the issues I've just listed, there are also a couple MASSIVE issues surrounding Kessel:

A. He could potential walk for nothing and that would be a HUGE CLUSTER (frank) DISASTER for the Leafs

or

B. Are you really sure that overpaying (because that's what the Leafs will have to do!) for Kessel in the neighborhood of $7.5M to $8M is a good idea?
- As_I_See_It

Ive already said he should be traded if he wants that much, or if he wants to walk. Since none of that is a fact at this point, then he shouldnt be traded. When those things become clear and true, then you look at things differently.

For now.

The Leafs need to move him THIS YEAR, because he's not an $8M guy (as you say) and that's likely what it's going to take!
- As_I_See_It

no, it really isn't.

Again, Kessel just keeps this team mediocre. He doesn't allow the Leafs to sink low enough to get the guy they really need nor does he fit the bill of the guy they need. He just keeps them in limbo.



You're assuming top end talent just appears out of thin air rather than trading the assets they have to help them acquire what they really need.
- Two_For_Truth

Trading Kessel is not a guarantee to bring you the elite player to build around. Trading Kessel is only a logical solution should his contract demands exceed what is fair value, or he has no intention of stayig here.

Kadri is producing enough to keep this team out of last. Does he get traded too? (frank), get rid of Frattin too. These guys are producing too much.