All in non-salary cap eras as well. It would be tough to have Roy, Sakic, Forsberg, Bourque, Foote, Hejduk on the same team, some of them in their prime, and still build a quality team around them.
- NickTheKid87

Yeah true.. hadnt thought about that.

Still possible though!

Its all good though.. I will still enjoy watching the games even if they suck. In the end, its not up to us as to what they do.

I just find it funny hoe you guys discount systems. Why have a coach then? Have the gm fill out theroster card.

Im not referring to the draft. Im talking free agents. We are terrible at drafting dmen.. until that changes I'd rather they stick with centers.

If every team is starting at the same point.. why are we so rusty and other teams look a step ahwad of us?

The team is playing like crap, agreed. YYou're kidding yourself if you think systems are important.
- Flyersgod

I'm not discounting the system. But there's more than one system that can win in the NHL. The trouble is, that people keep going on about systems this and systems that, while ignoring a very simple fact:

If you can't execute basic hockey skills, like passing, clearing the zone and maintaining man coverage no system will be effective. The Flyers could be using a perfectly designed system, but if the players don't execute there's no way that system is effective.

As far as free agents go, the Flyers made massive offers to Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. They didn't get them. But they tried very hard to land one or the other. As far as fitting the system, did Alexander Mogilny fit the Devils system? How about Ilya Kovalchuk? Are these names that sound like prototypical Devils to you?

As far as why guys aren't playing as well as other teams, I don't have an answer. Ask pre-season the pre-season Cup favorite Rangers. They're 0-2 and have played poorly, too. Their all world goalie has been pulled once. Perhaps the coaches handled the short training camp poorly-quite a few of the teams that have had success so far scrimmaged a couple times before the season started.

umm pretty sure LA had kopitar and carter who made significant impacts in the finals. and all that grit and grind is gonna go right out the window on 95 when homer signs G to 8 years 70 mil
- Flyers4Life88

So Kopitar is now a "proven" goal scorer by your definition? A guy who's scored 30+ goals twice with a career high of 34 yet Hartnell who has also scored 30+ goals twice with a career high of 37 is NOT a proven goal scorer.

I guess it all depends on how you define "proven". If Hartnell & Briere aren't "proven" then I'm not sure what else they have to "prove".
- NickTheKid87

They are proven to me.. imo

the team has no number 1 goal scorer, its bad enough relying on simmonds voracek and hartsy and read and schenn to produce on a regular basis. they should have went after ryan or perry or nash. but homer wants to hold on to his young guys like theyre precious jewels. too bad he didnt feel the same way about richards and carts after he signed em to 12 yr deals or whatever. we need a 30+ bonafide goal scorer.

on the back end contract crazy homer signs to bryz to 5+, signs grossman long term while u still have mez makin 4 and coburn 4.5 so those 3 d man = roughly 12 mill against the cap....
- Flyers4Life88

Giroux isn't a 30+ goal scorer? Come on, dude. Not every team needs a sniper when you have scoring depth. No way that Homer lands Ryan/Perry/Nash without gutting the team's depth. You have to realize that there is a salary cap in place, right? With Briere, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Vorcacek, Simmonds, Rusty, Coots, etc.; this team has plenty of scoring depth. Scoring isn't the issue here.....

And for all the crying that Flyers fans do, I'm glad Homer has Coburn/Meszy/Grossman locked up. Those are 3 top-4 d-men who can take the body and play smart hockey.

Face it. Flyers cannot draft defense/goaltending, but they can draft forwards. So what do they do? Sign defenseman that are looking for their next big contract while drafting/signing young forwards and getting the best bang for their buck. It's not rocket science, and there's not really much we can do other than get better at drafting defense.

Yeah true.. hadnt thought about that.

Still possible though!

Its all good though.. I will still enjoy watching the games even if they suck. In the end, its not up to us as to what they do.
- Flyersgod

The closest thing to a dynastic type team recently has been the Pens & Wings of 2007-08 & 2008-09 only because they went to the Cup both years. Otherwise, the game has changed since the days of the high-powered Devils, Red Wings and Avalanche teams of the late 90s-early 2000s.

They are proven to me.. imo
- Flyersgod

As they should be because they are.

So Kopitar is now a "proven" goal scorer by your definition? A guy who's scored 30+ goals twice with a career high of 34 yet Hartnell who has also scored 30+ goals twice with a career high of 37 is NOT a proven goal scorer.
- NickTheKid87

LOL, you're sayin kopitar with giroux and jags would put up under 37 goals...please please tell me you're say that...Kopitar has 434 pts in 476 games...and is 25

hartnell has 475 in 846 games...hmmm

I'm not discounting the system. But there's more than one system that can win in the NHL. The trouble is, that people keep going on about systems this and systems that, while ignoring a very simple fact:

If you can't execute basic hockey skills, like passing, clearing the zone and maintaining man coverage no system will be effective. The Flyers could be using a perfect system, but if the players don't execute there's no way that system is effective.

As far as free agents go, the Flyers made massive offers to Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. They didn't get them. But they tried very hard to land one or the other. As far as fitting the system, did Alexander Mogilny fit the Devils system? How about Ilya Kovalchuk? Are these names that sound like prototypical Devils to you?

As far as why guys aren't playing as well as other teams, I don't have an answer. Ask pre-season the pre-season Cup favorite Rangers. They're 0-2 and have played poorly, too. Their all world goalie has been pulled once. Perhaps the coaches handled the short training camp poorly-quite a few of the teams that have had success so far scrimmaged a couple times before the season started.
- Jsaquella

I get what you are saying. If you dont execute no system will matter.

I dont care about this year. They did th is same crap last year.

My concern isnt panic based on the first 3 games. Its based on watching th is team flop year after yw ar the same exact way.

Insanity is, doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Seriously its not a bad year to tank it, the draft is real nice.

Loosing Jagr was a big deal. The lines have 0 identity. Last year we had a defined shutdown line and a defined checking tough line. This year we Feds - Talbot - Wellwood doing what, besides taking up space.

LOL, you're sayin kopitar with giroux and jags would put up under 37 goals...please please tell me you're say that...Kopitar has 434 pts in 476 games...and is 25

hartnell has 475 in 846 games...hmmm
- Flyers4Life88

Kopitar is a playmaker, not a goal scorer. He's essentially a lesser version of Giroux. Don't get me wrong, Anze's a great player but I don't think you'll find many people that will label him as a goal scorer first and foremost.

I get what you are saying. If you dont execute no system will matter.

I dont care about this year. They did th is same crap last year.

My concern isnt panic based on the first 3 games. Its based on watching th is team flop year after yw ar the same exact way.

Insanity is, doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
- Flyersgod

Considering that the Flyers make drastic changes, almost every off season, I'd love to see them stand pat and not simply try to copy whatever team eliminated them the previous season.

I get what you are saying. If you dont execute no system will matter.

I dont care about this year. They did th is same crap last year.

My concern isnt panic based on the first 3 games. Its based on watching th is team flop year after yw ar the same exact way.

Insanity is, doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
- Flyersgod

They don't really do the same thing. This last offseason didn't go nearly the way the Flyers wanted it to. Instead of entering this year with Weber or Suter, we downgraded the defense unintentionally. It was a perfect storm really. The Flyers are always contenders but there is no such thing as building a guaranteed Cup winner anymore. EVERYTHING needs to go right in the playoffs to win a Championship.

Giroux isn't a 30+ goal scorer? Come on, dude. Not every team needs a sniper when you have scoring depth. No way that Homer lands Ryan/Perry/Nash without gutting the team's depth. You have to realize that there is a salary cap in place, right? With Briere, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Vorcacek, Simmonds, Rusty, Coots, etc.; this team has plenty of scoring depth. Scoring isn't the issue here.....

And for all the crying that Flyers fans do, I'm glad Homer has Coburn/Meszy/Grossman locked up. Those are 3 top-4 d-men who can take the body and play smart hockey.

Face it. Flyers cannot draft defense/goaltending, but they can draft forwards. So what do they do? Sign defenseman that are looking for their next big contract while drafting/signing young forwards and getting the best bang for their buck. It's not rocket science, and there's not really much we can do other than get better at drafting defense.
- steelydan

riddle me this....why then do you think homer went after zach parise whose had 5 30+ goal season including a season where he put up 45!!!!!! and cant forget about ryan suter....we lost our number 1 D man and are relying on kimmo who frankly takes a beating to carry the defense.

if Homer didnt lollygag with parise and suter who knowingly wanted to play for Minny then jags and carle are prob still flyers

They don't really do the same thing. This last offseason didn't go nearly the way the Flyers wanted it to. Instead of entering this year with Weber or Suter, we downgraded the defense unintentionally. It was a perfect storm really. The Flyers are always contenders but there is no such thing as building a guaranteed Cup winner anymore. EVERYTHING needs to go right in the playoffs to win a Championship.
- NickTheKid87

Very true!

Seriously its not a bad year to tank it, the draft is real nice.

Loosing Jagr was a big deal. The lines have 0 identity. Last year we had a defined shutdown line and a defined checking tough line. This year we Feds - Talbot - Wellwood doing what, besides taking up space.
- flyers2001

As you guys have had all 3 of your games on NBC already (how the... oh right comcast!) I've watched them all. Through the first two games, I thought you guys didnt look too bad. But last night, it was apparent to me exactly what you said.

Losing Jagr was definitely a big deal. A blow to the chemistry and balance of your lines. I think Briere coming back to the lineup will help return some of that balance as well as scoring.

riddle me this....why then do you think homer went after zach parise whose had 5 30+ goal season including a season where he put up 45!!!!!! and cant forget about ryan suter....we lost our number 1 D man and are relying on kimmo who frankly takes a beating to carry the defense.

if Homer didnt lollygag with parise and suter who knowingly wanted to play for Minny then jags and carle are prob still flyers
- Flyers4Life88

Uh, he probably went after Parise because he could get a really talented player without giving up hockey assets. As for Jagr and Carle, I imagine Holmgren and Snider likely made the decision semi-early on to keep those dollars open to do something like send Shea Weber a massive offer sheet.

They don't really do the same thing. This last offseason didn't go nearly the way the Flyers wanted it to. Instead of entering this year with Weber or Suter, we downgraded the defense unintentionally. It was a perfect storm really. The Flyers are always contenders but there is no such thing as building a guaranteed Cup winner anymore. EVERYTHING needs to go right in the playoffs to win a Championship.
- NickTheKid87

Exactly. The plan was to have Suter or Weber as the top pair guy, probably paired with Coburn, have a second pair of Schenn & Timonen and a third pair of Meszaros and Grossmann.

Waiting for Godot, the Flyers couldn't retain Carle or go after the lesser lights. It happens. The key is to adjust to make the most of the players they did get.

Considering that the Flyers make drastic changes, almost every off season, I'd love to see them stand pat and not simply try to copy whatever team eliminated them the previous season.
- Jsaquella

I can definitely agree with this.

Part of the benefit of having a player of Giroux's caliber is that he makes players better so you don't need to spend extra money for players to play with him. Besides, how many "proven goal scorers" did LA have? Or Boston the year before? Goal scorers are much sexier than defensemen and grinders but that doesn't make them anymore valuable.
- NickTheKid87

LA had 4 20+ goal scorers on their team last year, and Carter was one of them. Kopitar led the team with 25 goals.

All in non-salary cap eras as well. It would be tough to have Roy, Sakic, Forsberg, Bourque, Foote, Hejduk on the same team, some of them in their prime, and still build a quality team around them.
- NickTheKid87

or not....

Fleury Crosby Malkin Letang Orpik Neal

Roy better than Fleury
Bourque was HARDLY "in his prime" so Letang night be better now..

I think that is a fair comparison

Exactly. The plan was to have Suter or Weber as the top pair guy, probably paired with Coburn, have a second pair of Schenn & Timonen and a third pair of Meszaros and Grossmann.

Waiting for Godot, the Flyers couldn't retain Carle or go after the lesser lights. It happens. The key is to adjust to make the most of the players they did get.
- Jsaquella

yess..they rolled the dice and are paying for it now

or not....

Fleury Crosby Malkin Letang Orpik Neal

Roy better than Fleury
Bourque was HARDLY "in his prime" so Letang night be better now..

I think that is a fair comparison
- Ripped Fuel

Fleury did play out of his mind the year the Pens won the Cup, though.

I just find it funny hoe you guys discount systems. Why have a coach then? Have the gm fill out theroster card.

Im not referring to the draft. Im talking free agents. We are terrible at drafting dmen.. until that changes I'd rather they stick with centers.

If every team is starting at the same point.. why are we so rusty and other teams look a step ahwad of us?

The team is playing like crap, agreed. YYou're kidding yourself if you think systems are important.
- Flyersgod

we don't discount systems. I know what systems are, their role in the game. And I know why teams win and lose.

There's one thing about systems. There isn't any revolutionary system. Peter Laviolette didn't design or invent any of the systems he uses. Niether has any other Coach. They are strategies that have been around for decades.

LA had 4 20+ goal scorers on their team last year, and Carter was one of them. Kopitar led the team with 25 goals.
- MJL

reminds me of when we had the old city crew

http://flyers.nhl.com/clu...stats.htm?season=20082009