Talbot, Fedetenko, Giroux, Hartnell, Coburn.
- MJL

Now go ask the other 30 teams if they would trade their leadership group for those guys.

Giroux is talented, but young.

To me it all comes back to the D. Far too slow. The outlet pass in the neutral zone is getting by them 9 times out of 10. Forwards are having to scramble to be the guy back on the rush because the D is too slow or out of place. Pucks are being dumped in with no rhyme or reason only for the opposition to set up coming the other way.

We need a fleet of foot puck mover plain and simple.
- hereticpride

The D is constantly getting beat to 50/50 pucks. That leads to the opposing team controlling the puck, and eventually leads to scoring chances. This D core just is average at best. Couple that with a below average forward core in their own end, and it's not the best combination.

Now go ask the other 30 teams if they would trade their leadership group for those guys.

Giroux is talented, but young.
- flyer_nutter

That's just making something up. Because that statement implies that the Flyers have the worst leadership in the League. Giroux is talented, young, and just named the Captain.

That is certainly a need for this team. Even if they started out 3-0, it would be a need. But that isn't why they are currently 0-3.
- MJL

Just regarding your previous comment on how they are a young team. Im not going to start anything but that has been said since the lockout.

Its getting to be really old for me. The forwards have consistently been young. The D has not.

They need to balance that out. Your window on D is closed big time and the forward one is just opening. Your goaltender isnt too young either. Weird mix.

If your making a deal like that. Your not doing it just for this Season.
- MJL

The problem is the players that would be worth those players typically aren't available, especially midseason.

That's just making something up. Because that statement implies that the Flyers have the worst leadership in the League. Giroux is talented, young, and just named the Captain.
- MJL

Richards was also named captain.

Not saying they have the worst group, but how many of those 30 teams would change their leadership group for the Flyers. Simply regarding leadership, not talent. Without Pronger, and to a lesser extent Jagr it seems off to me.

The D is constantly getting beat to 50/50 pucks. That leads to the opposing team controlling the puck, and eventually leads to scoring chances. This D core just is average at best. Couple that with a below average forward core in their own end, and it's not the best combination.
- PLindbergh31

Add in an attacking style that often has big gaps between the forwards and the defensemen.

Just regarding your previous comment on how they are a young team. Im not going to start anything but that has been said since the lockout.

Its getting to be really old for me. The forwards have consistently been young. The D has not.

They need to balance that out. Your window on D is closed big time and the forward one is just opening. Your goaltender isnt too young either. Weird mix.
- flyer_nutter

That is nothing new. You always need a balance of young and old. The worst thing you could do, is to have all young players, and a lack of veterans. You need a mix. The lockout ended 2 weeks ago.

Add in an attacking style that often has big gaps between the forwards and the defensemen.
- psuhockey

Ahhh I was hoping someone would bring that up. Ive been seeing a lot of the opposite. They try to make the gap smaller. Which is hard because it slows the game down and doesnt allow the forwards to use their speed as much.

When poop goes wrong, they open up and panic.

Richards was also named captain.

Not saying they have the worst group, but how many of those 30 teams would change their leadership group for the Flyers. Simply regarding leadership, not talent. Without Pronger, and to a lesser extent Jagr it seems off to me.
- flyer_nutter

Richards has zero to do with this. Since you seem to know, and keep bringing it up. You tell me how many of those 30 teams would swap leaders? As if that has anything to do with anything.

That is nothing new. You always need a balance of young and old. The worst thing you could do, is to have all young players, and a lack of veterans. You need a mix. The lockout ended 2 weeks ago.
- MJL

Previous lockout.

A mix sure, but you cant have a D core lead by an expiring star and a bunch of mediocrity.

Then have all youth up front with just Briere, Talbot and Hartnell (I dont buy his leadership hype). To me its just a weird mix.

Ahhh I was hoping someone would bring that up. Ive been seeing a lot of the opposite. They try to make the gap smaller. Which is hard because it slows the game down and doesnt allow the forwards to use their speed as much.

When poop goes wrong, they open up and panic.
- flyer_nutter

Keeping the gap between forwards and defense doesn't slow the game down. It's the opposite. It makes a team faster. Because there is better support on the puck. Better positioning makes a team faster, not slower.

Just regarding your previous comment on how they are a young team. Im not going to start anything but that has been said since the lockout.

Its getting to be really old for me. The forwards have consistently been young. The D has not.

They need to balance that out. Your window on D is closed big time and the forward one is just opening. Your goaltender isnt too young either. Weird mix.
- flyer_nutter

Well, the lockout only just ended!

No, but for real, since the last lockout we did see a young core come and go. I'd definitely like to see some youth and some offense on the blueline. As for the goaltending, I really don't know what to expect at season's end.

I do think it's too early to say we can diagnose bigger problems with this team based on this season. There's are some atypical factors right now. Not trying to pass this as an excuse, just a reason for patience.

Richards has zero to do with this. Since you seem to know, and keep bringing it up. You tell me how many of those 30 teams would swap leaders? As if that has anything to do with anything.
- MJL

I dont think many of them would.

I dont need to have a link. None of us are in the NHL...

Previous lockout.

A mix sure, but you cant have a D core lead by an expiring star and a bunch of mediocrity.

Then have all youth up front with just Briere, Talbot and Hartnell (I dont buy his leadership hype). To me its just a weird mix.
- flyer_nutter

I would disagree that there is a bunch of mediocrity on defense. Hartnell is a leader. So is Fedetenko. Leaders are leaders. Doesn't matter what position they play.

Keeping the gap between forwards and defense doesn't slow the game down. It's the opposite. It makes a team faster. Because there is better support on the puck.
- MJL

When you have a D core thats pretty damn slow and subpar on the transition game.....

I'd like to see Laughton paired with Giroux for a few shifts next game. The kid has been driving to the net harder than anyone.

I dont think many of them would.

I dont need to have a link. None of us are in the NHL...
- flyer_nutter

I think you have zero basis to make that comment. This is simply overreacting to the current situation.

I would disagree that there is a bunch of mediocrity on defense. Hartnell is a leader. So is Fedetenko. Leaders are leaders. Doesn't matter what position they play.
- MJL

Only for fun.

If you seem to know, please explain how Fedetenko and Hartnell are leaders. Where also you would know that from.

I'd like to see Laughton paired with Giroux for a few shifts next game. The kid has been driving to the net harder than anyone.
- hereticpride

He's definitely trying to make it happen out there. I like his effort.

When you have a D core thats pretty damn slow and subpar on the transition game.....
- flyer_nutter

Bingo. The outlet pass from blue line to blue line is killing them. They cant keep up. How many break aways have we seen in three games? They're going to have to start playing back more.

Im out for tonight hooligans.

At the end of the day its not leadership that is making this team suck. Its everything.

Sometimes though, some players are just better than others. Flyers need to improve the D with some star power and add some leadership/snarl on offense.

Id trade one of Cooties or Schenn for the #1 pick and Jones.

Try Kimmo for one more year and roll out.

Not perfect but I was called crazy for being willing to trade Schenn and Cooties for Weber.
- flyer_nutter

I think 2 angles I'd explore are Coots for Subban (assuming LTC was worked out beforehand) and something along the lines of Jake + Read for Bobby Ryan. I think this helps on a lot of fronts. Ryan is the sniper Giroux could use and provides physical play and leadership. Subban is the potential #1 guy on D that can shoot and move the puck.

Hartsy-Giroux-Ryan
Schenn-Briere-Simmonds
Fedo-Laughton-Wellwood
Sestito-Talbot-Rinaldo

Subban-Coby
Kimmo-Grossmann
Mez-Schenn


I think we'd still be deep enough at forward and it opens up a spot to bring up another energy player like Sestito full time. JMO

They're trying to install the younger players as leaders. It's a process. You don't simply put a C on a jersey and turn a guy into a leader. And let's face it, they're missing some guys who provided leadership last season.

They traded Richards and Cater. They've moved Umberger, Lupul and allowed Carle to move on. The "young" guys from the 2007-08 run are mostly gone. They're relying on a lot of young guys to step up and carry a lot of water. When teams do that, there will be growing pains.

A large part of the problem is that the veterans who are expected to be the steadying influences haven't played well themselves-or in the case of Danny Briere at all.

Only for fun.

If you seem to know, please explain how Fedetenko and Hartnell are leaders. Where also you would know that from.
- flyer_nutter

Hartnell is a veteran of 845 NHL games and has been a Flyer for 6 Seasons now. He is a key player and leads by example on the ice. Including frequently standing up for teammates. Fedetenko is a veteran of over 800 NHL games, and has the experience of playing on 2 Stanley Cup winning teams.

Now it's your turn. Tell me why they aren't leaders?