see, this is were it gets goofy around here....do you really think Burke would trade Gardiner for Luongo?
as I said earlier, what trades have either Nonis OR Burke, made besides possibly the Kessel deal, that would make you think Gardiner would be traded for Luongo?
- Barx

if Burke trades Gardiner for Luongo straight-up or at all - he's crazier than the Burke that made the Kessel deal.

His free agent signings have been flavoured by too much scotch, but I don't he makes a deal which approaches Gardiner for Luongo straight-up. That nonsense is probably coming from dreaming Canucklehead fans.

Yzerman, 4th overall. Doughty, 2nd overall. The Leafs saved the Bruins and tanked for them. The Ducks had Niedermayer and Pronger, two guys who went 2nd and 3rd overall.
- Two_For_Truth

The Bruins didn't win the cup cuz they tanked. They made some very smart 2nd round selections. THe wings made some very smart late round selections, and were smart enough not to ship Yzerman to Ottawa....again, agree with you, just playing devils advocate cuz its fun.

Headed, but the results arent there. You can take the right route to China, it doesnt mean you're going to get there.

What is a fact though is that this team as it is, isnt good enough or improved.
In 5 years, Burke hasnt done a good enough job to warrant secure employment beyond this year.

Won.
- systemtool

What is also a fact is that Burke inherited a franchise on a massive decline, with old players set to retire, and a minor league cupboard that was simply bare.

In 5 years, he's managed to re-stock the cupboard, and acquire more 1st rounders (that are currently in the system) than any other NHL team. The fruits of this labour have already begun to show with the Marlies performance over the past 2 seasons. The operative word in all this is 'patience'. Something you tend to throw around, but don't seem to have a good grasp on.

If headed in the direction he has been, Burke will have this team a contender within a few years.

That's crap. They got to game seven of the finals. Drop the idea that Luongo can't win - if the rest of the team had shown up for 1 game in Boston that entire series, he'd have a Stanley Cup ring.

It's not a rational criticism of Luongo.
- Atomic Wedgie

absolutely.
and when he does win gold, he is discredited.
fact is, luongo is one of the games most consistently solid goalies for over a decade.
if you want to talk about his albatros of a contract not being worth it, fine, but it grows really tiresome when people can't admit he is a great goaltender.

Look, I'm in agreement with you; I've been saying for years now that the Leafs have to get good before they can get great.

But just not this year. Hell, we are only 48 games away from the end of the Leafs' season. In a deep draft year.

The offseason will also be crazy, with a lot of teams struggling for cap comliance.

I'm down with the Fakepartofme plan for the return of respectibility. Sign me up.

Let's just wait for 48 games before doing it.
- Atomic Wedgie

I think most people agree with this. I dont mind them trying to win, what I mind is trading young players and assets for mid 30 year old players like we used to. Thats where the patience part comes in. What until the off season and see what other options are availabe for a cheap price or that you can sign and keep your players.

Ya but we have James van 40 points.
- AdamFrench

#1 Center

Look, I'm in agreement with you; I've been saying for years now that the Leafs have to get good before they can get great.

But just not this year. Hell, we are only 48 games away from the end of the Leafs' season. In a deep draft year.

The offseason will also be crazy, with a lot of teams struggling for cap comliance.

I'm down with the Fakepartofme plan for the return of respectibility. Sign me up.

Let's just wait for 48 games before doing it.
- Atomic Wedgie

Couldn't agree more... nicely stated.

The Leafs don't have to to tank on purpose. They suck enough to do it all by themselves. 45 years of failure does matter as much as you would love to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist and it does matter.



Is this a joke or your serious definition of winning? Being above .500 and making the playoffs? That's a winner? Wow. Some really low standards you've set for yourself. Guess it helps you deal with the fact the team sucks.



It is definitely a short term fix. 100% short term fix. It is the definition of a short term fix. Getting a guy in his mid 30s who is being tossed away so the Leafs can go from being bad to mediocre. That is much of a quick fix as you can get.



No, it's called being patience and drafting players that are worth getting into the playoffs with. Just because you make the playoffs once or twice, doesn't mean you have the horses to run to the end of the race. But I'm sure you'd be thrilled with the illusion of success rather than the actual progression required to get the job done.



According to you, tanking doesn't work but grabbing a 30-something year old being tossed to the curb by the Canucks is what will get the job done.

Keep dreaming in blue and white technicolor.
- Two_For_Truth

Of course it exist....but its something the current management group or ownership had anything to do with (except the past couple of years)

Its the foundation winning is built on....

Short term fixes are current year or next...not 4 -5 years. Use your head.....or please try.

Its not about getting into the playoffs once or try .....its about doing it on a consistent basis and you need a winning environment and foundation for that.

Its not according to me....its according to stats. Tanking doesn't always work.

It's only a matter of time before Burke sells the future to save his ass or before he gets fired and the next guy will be allowed to realize the mistakes and correct them. But it's pretty idiotic to start hoping Burke does the former.
- Two_For_Truth

Everybody keeps saying this, but I have my doubts.

I think the guy is so stubborn, he'll stick to his plan (yeah, assuming he has one). I don't think the guy will change his course to save his ass.

Here is a way to mitigate the Luongo retiring early problem.

Trade him to a team trying to reach the cap floor with a prospect and retain 50% of his actual salary. Or trade the cap hit and million dollar salary for a serviceable player that is being paid to much at the time. This helps the bottom feeder team hit the cap floor and get a decent prospect for about 1 million a year.

- bcoop

AHHHH! The old "cap floor" arguement.

Because he has a contract now, he doesnt after this season.

Why wouldnt he have a job to save when he has no contract?

Simple.
- systemtool

Ever hear of a 1 contract extension?

They're pretty common for GMs, coaches, and players in limbo.

absolutely.
and when he does win gold, he is discredited.
fact is, luongo is one of the games most consistently solid goalies for over a decade.
if you want to talk about his albatros of a contract not being worth it, fine, but it grows really tiresome when people can't admit he is a great goaltender.
- Barx

he's a good goaltender... i am not sold on calling him great... i just think he is somewhat over rated but meh.

he isnt worth that contract.. thats my big issue

however i will happily admit he is easily an upgrade to the leafs goaltending situation.

That's crap. They got to game seven of the finals. Drop the idea that Luongo can't win - if the rest of the team had shown up for 1 game in Boston that entire series, he'd have a Stanley Cup ring.

It's not a rational criticism of Luongo.
- Atomic Wedgie

Come back and talk to me when the Leafs have equivalents for the Sedins, Edler, Kesler, Burrows, Ehrhoff and every other core player the Canucks have that made the game seven finals appearance possible.

Had you taken the time to read my post, you would know that I was talking about the Leafs being incapable of producing the same environment that was created for Luongo in Vancouver. Add to that Luongo getting older and you have a failed experiment.

Teams havent been allowed to trade. Burke is desperate whether Luongo becomes a Leaf or not.
- systemtool

If Burke was desperate he would've traded for Luongo way before the lockout.

What is also a fact is that Burke inherited a franchise on a massive decline, with old players set to retire, and a minor league cupboard that was simply bare.

In 5 years, he's managed to re-stock the cupboard, and acquire more 1st rounders (that are currently in the system) than any other NHL team. The fruits of this labour have already begun to show with the Marlies performance over the past 2 seasons. The operative word in all this is 'patience'. Something you tend to throw around, but don't seem to have a good grasp on.

If headed in the direction he has been, Burke will have this team a contender within a few years.
- Pen15

I never said Burke hasnt done some positives. Im just saying he hasnt done enough to feel his job is secure long term. Heading in the right direction isnt enough when it hasnt resulting in the standings, especially when it comes to suits who make these decisions and dont understand the games as well as those who follow it closely.

I think this one is in the books. Were repeating the same points over and over. I disagree with you on the security of his job, not the positives he has done. Until he is signed long term, he isnt a lock to be here in a 2 years.

Cheers. Take the loss like a man.

Want to know the best way to mitigate the Luongo problem?

Leave him Vancouver.
- Two_For_Truth

Yes, Luongo is going to be problematic no matter how you slice it. I've outlined that in some previous posts, so I won't rehash all the scenarios.

But that's not to say that such problems can't be quantified and compensated for. If there were some way to get Luongo for almost nothing, you'd need to weigh that option.

I'm ambivalent about the Lu thing, but I won't deny that he's an exceptional goaltender.

Of course it exist....but its something the current management group or ownership had anything to do with (except the past couple of years)

Its the foundation winning is built on....

Short term fixes are current year or next...not 4 -5 years. Use your head.....or please try.
- Fakepartofme

Luongo has a couple good years left in him at best. Under the pressure of the Toronto market, it could be less. Additionally, if you used your head, you would know the Leafs are still a crappy team which means 8th place and a 1st round exit. If Luongo could get bounced in the 1st round with a 1st placed team, he's going to get murdered in Toronto.

Short. Term. Fix. Deal with it.

Its not about getting into the playoffs once or try .....its about doing it on a consistent basis and you need a winning environment and foundation for that.

Its not according to me....its according to stats. Tanking doesn't always work.

Tanking doesn't always work but getting a 30-something year old just to make 8th place works?

Sure thing.

The Bruins didn't win the cup cuz they tanked. They made some very smart 2nd round selections. THe wings made some very smart late round selections, and were smart enough not to ship Yzerman to Ottawa....again, agree with you, just playing devils advocate cuz its fun.
- mykokes

They shipped Kessel to the first dumbass team that would overpay for him, then used that to draft Seguin 2nd overall and acquire Horton. Add to that masterful 2nd round drafting and you have a winner.

Ya but we have James van 40 points.
- AdamFrench

Exciting.

Luongo has a couple good years left in him at best. Under the pressure of the Toronto market, it could be less. Additionally, if you used your head, you would know the Leafs are still a crappy team which means 8th place and a 1st round exit. If Luongo could get bounced in the 1st round with a 1st placed team, he's going to get murdered in Toronto.

Short. Term. Fix. Deal with it.



Tanking doesn't always work but getting a 30-something year old just to make 8th place works?

Sure thing.
- Two_For_Truth

Have you seen how he was treated by the Vancouver media? Not even Montreal could treat a goalie like that...

AHHHH! The old "cap floor" arguement.
- Aetherial

Komi is just entering the golden years of his cap floor trade chip contract!

Next year: $4.5 million cap hit, $3.5 million in actual payments.

I can think of about 28 teams who will be looking to add him.

Oh, wait - he's from Long Island. Islanders will also be interested.

29 teams.

Everybody keeps saying this, but I have my doubts.

I think the guy is so stubborn, he'll stick to his plan (yeah, assuming he has one). I don't think the guy will change his course to save his ass.
- Atomic Wedgie

Agreed.

So many posters on here talk out of both sides of their mouth...

They argue that we're headed in the right direction, but that Burke's job is in jeopardy...

They argue that Burke is a stubborn SOB, but yet it's only a matter of time before he gives up and sells the farm...

Utter nonsense.

Everybody keeps saying this, but I have my doubts.

I think the guy is so stubborn, he'll stick to his plan (yeah, assuming he has one). I don't think the guy will change his course to save his ass.
- Atomic Wedgie

Considering he's been rumored as the next commissioner and could get a job in about 20 markets if he wanted, I'm not sure that he's all that focused on keeping the one he's got.

It's not like a 23 year old who needs to keep his job selling iPhones at a mall kiosk to make rent here.

I agree that he's probably more committed to his vision here than to a quick fix. As has been pointed out, if he wanted the quick fix, he would have thrown the bank at some free agent (which would have screwed us in the future) or grabbed a trade deadline pick-up in any of his years here.

Look, I'm in agreement with you; I've been saying for years now that the Leafs have to get good before they can get great.

But just not this year. Hell, we are only 48 games away from the end of the Leafs' season. In a deep draft year.

The offseason will also be crazy, with a lot of teams struggling for cap comliance.

I'm down with the Fakepartofme plan for the return of respectibility. Sign me up.

Let's just wait for 48 games before doing it.
- Atomic Wedgie

Im not saying jump all over Lou.....but we need a real goalie, if its Lou great...if not great. But something.

I suppose I can wait 48 games.