Their defense needs a major upgrade.
- Pecafan Fan

they are nowhere near big enough or mean enough throughout the line-up.
lotsa skill, not enough toughness.
luckily, they should finally be able to attract UFA's now that they have a young stable of talent.

The team has been bottom feeding his whole time in Toronto.

Go.
- systemtool

In an earlier post you said that we're finally headed in the right direction, and that we shouldn't (frank) it up by giving up pieces and trading for Luongo...

If we're finally headed in the right direction, and Burke has been at the helm for 5 years now (?), then haven't you already indirectly agreed that he's done a good job?

Done.

We don't need to hold off to be able to logically assume that he isn't going anywhere. That's just common sense.
- Pen15

Thats an assumption and opinion. Its not common sense.

We also dont need to hold off to know Burke is desperate.

The team has been bottom feeding his whole time in Toronto.

Go.
- systemtool

True and he hasn't accomplished what he set out to accomplish.
But they have good prospects now, the AHL affiliated has been pretty darn good the past couple of years.
Some really bad players have been shed.

Ask yourself this, giving what Burke walked into, how much better could the result of been?
Granted the Kessel deal......not the greatest.
But he took over a mess...he just needed to shut his mouth more.

It's only a matter of time before Burke sells the future to save his ass or before he gets fired and the next guy will be allowed to realize the mistakes and correct them. But it's pretty idiotic to start hoping Burke does the former.
- Two_For_Truth

Can't wait.

Smaller market teams dont compare to bigger market teams.

The draft has helped the Bruins, Canes, Bolts, Ducks, Wings, Pens, Hawks, Kings win the cup. Which list is longer? Those are just the cup winners. I still havent mentioned the Blues, Edmonton etc.
- systemtool

We were talking about tanking here... Not sure the Ducks, Wings, Kings, Bruins fit that description.

Of course the draft helps, it's the very basis of building a team.

Here is a way to mitigate the Luongo retiring early problem.
- bcoop

Want to know the best way to mitigate the Luongo problem?

Leave him Vancouver.

Im just going by the reports from some fairly credible sources. I also dont think its beyong him to do it either. He has to save his job and pride.
- systemtool

If his job isn't in jeopardy right now, why would he have to save it?

The Leafs don't have to to tank on purpose. They suck enough to do it all by themselves. 45 years of failure does matter as much as you would love to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist and it does matter.



Is this a joke or your serious definition of winning? Being above .500 and making the playoffs? That's a winner? Wow. Some really low standards you've set for yourself. Guess it helps you deal with the fact the team sucks.



It is definitely a short term fix. 100% short term fix. It is the definition of a short term fix. Getting a guy in his mid 30s who is being tossed away so the Leafs can go from being bad to mediocre. That is much of a quick fix as you can get.



No, it's called being patience and drafting players that are worth getting into the playoffs with. Just because you make the playoffs once or twice, doesn't mean you have the horses to run to the end of the race. But I'm sure you'd be thrilled with the illusion of success rather than the actual progression required to get the job done.



According to you, tanking doesn't work but grabbing a 30-something year old being tossed to the curb by the Canucks is what will get the job done.

Keep dreaming in blue and white technicolor.
- Two_For_Truth

Love you man, but I think he's just doing the Bryzgalov argument you made last year. And I know in your heart of hearts you never really wanted Bryzgalov.

With the 14 teams out of the playoffs having a chance at a lottery pick, tanking won't be a viable option anymore.

And truth be told, it hasn't done much for the Islanders, Blue Jackets or the Oilers... at least, not yet.
- Pecafan Fan

If the NHL picks up the NBA style draft lottery, it's a start but as long as the last place team has better odds, tanking still holds drafting value.

If they made a 14 team, equal weight lottery, that's a different story.

In an earlier post you said that we're finally headed in the right direction, and that we shouldn't (frank) it up by giving up pieces and trading for Luongo...

If we're finally headed in the right direction, and Burke has been at the helm for 5 years now (?), then haven't you already indirectly agreed that he's done a good job?

Done.
- Pen15

Headed, but the results arent there. You can take the right route to China, it doesnt mean you're going to get there.

What is a fact though is that this team as it is, isnt good enough or improved.

In 5 years, Burke hasnt done a good enough job to warrant secure employment beyond this year.

Won.

Thats an assumption and opinion. Its not common sense.

We also dont need to hold off to know Burke is desperate.
- systemtool

If Burke is desperate, Luongo would already be a Leaf, and our farm team would be Canucks.

It's only a matter of time before Burke sells the future to save his ass or before he gets fired and the next guy will be allowed to realize the mistakes and correct them. But it's pretty idiotic to start hoping Burke does the former.
- Two_For_Truth

Define what you consider the "future"
Gardiner and Rielly wont be going anywhere.
I cant see Finn or Percy either.

Outside of them tell me this future he could be selling?

Want to know the best way to mitigate the Luongo problem?

Leave him Vancouver.
- Two_For_Truth

i'd be fine with him going to florida as well.

If his job isn't in jeopardy right now, why would he have to save it?
- Pen15

Because he has a contract now, he doesnt after this season.

Why wouldnt he have a job to save when he has no contract?

Simple.

Surely by "winning" you don't mean winning a Stanley Cup because you couldn't possibly be that stupid right? If Luongo couldn't get the job done with Vancouver, he has no hope of winning a Cup in Toronto.So that leaves one other definition of "winning" which is making the playoffs and getting their ass kicked in the 1st or 2nd round for a few years. If that's your definition of winning, the idea that winning now is absolutely imperative is a fantasy that you created in your mind because you don't have the patience to see things done properly.

Call it luck but it worked. After 45 years, the Leafs need to stop thinking about what looks pretty and just do what works. Period.

Get this through your head. The Leafs need to do things properly. Short term fixes to make 8th place and get a 1st round ass kicking might be enough to keep you entertained but it's not remotely good enough.
- Two_For_Truth

That's crap. They got to game seven of the finals. Drop the idea that Luongo can't win - if the rest of the team had shown up for 1 game in Boston that entire series, he'd have a Stanley Cup ring.

It's not a rational criticism of Luongo.

That's pretty simple.

How would you determine how much each team would pay - assuming the player plays for multiple teams over the term of their contract?
- Pen15

Same way, you just break it up. So, if he played for Team A over the first 5 years, how much was his salary, and his cap hit over the first 5 years, then do the same for Team B. It's essentially like breaking it up into two different contracts.

This is another thing I've been mulling over. You could arguably have a team that trades for, say, Luongo with 3 years remaining. He plays two years with a $5.3M cap hit, but they've only paid him about $5M. Does the team actually get $5M taken off their cap hits, because his cap hit is far more than they've paid him?

If Burke is desperate, Luongo would already be a Leaf, and our farm team would be Canucks.
- Pen15

Teams havent been allowed to trade. Burke is desperate whether Luongo becomes a Leaf or not.

We were talking about tanking here... Not sure the Ducks, Wings, Kings, Bruins fit that description.

Of course the draft helps, it's the very basis of building a team.
- Pecafan Fan

Yzerman, 4th overall. Doughty, 2nd overall. The Leafs saved the Bruins and tanked for them. The Ducks had Niedermayer and Pronger, two guys who went 2nd and 3rd overall.

We were talking about tanking here... Not sure the Ducks, Wings, Kings, Bruins fit that description.

Of course the draft helps, it's the very basis of building a team.
- Pecafan Fan

We were talking about being patient and not trading picks for mid 30 year old players without drafting the core first.

Not tanking. Big difference.

That's crap. They got to game seven of the finals. Drop the idea that Luongo can't win - if the rest of the team had shown up for 1 game in Boston that entire series, he'd have a Stanley Cup ring.

It's not a rational criticism of Luongo.
- Atomic Wedgie

There's another way to look at it, Cujo took Toronto to two conference finals, but couldn't get out of the first round with a superior red wings team....just playing devils advocate cuz its fun

I agree that that would be the logical way to do it. Have you read the rule or are assuming that the NHL did things the logical way?
- Canada Cup

I've read summaries of the rule. If you read, very closely, the analysis on the Luongo contract, while it comes out to close to an even split in the scenario he's traded and retires with 2 years left, it fits with this quite perfectly. The unfortunate part about that example is many just looked at it and thought "oh, they just split it".

I don't think they've released the actual CBA yet. When they do, I will likely end up reading huge portions of it. I did with the last one.

Yeah, I know, I need a life.

Love you man, but I think he's just doing the Bryzgalov argument you made last year. And I know in your heart of hearts you never really wanted Bryzgalov.
- mykokes

He is saying the Leafs need Luongo to start "winning". He is not saying that in theory that if the Leafs want to win they need Luongo. He's saying the best course of action is to get Luongo. Two different things.

Cry about your foolishness all you want...who cares what the past 45 years have brought or haven't brought....your opinion matters not. The fact is the Leafs wont be tanking on purpose....not with the new owners....so get over it.

Winning means, being an above .500 team, a team that makes the playoffs, a team that creates a winning environment for its players and youth, a team players want to play for because they believe they have a good shot at winning.

It's not a short term fix - 4 - 5 years is not term....they need playoff experience. They need a winning environment to A) attract players without overpaying and B) to develop their youth to want to stay.

Anyone who thinks its good to miss the playoffs for years, develop and than bam they are going to win the cup is stupid. Sure there's always that one in a million chance.

Its called progress....make the playoffs, see how you hold up, gain experience and get a few more pieces. Make the playoffs, go a little deeper or a lucky run, gain experience, fill the gaps. And so on and so on.

I know you are use to losing with the leafs and maybe in life, but you can build for the future and still win in the present. Its called scouting and drafting...something the leafs need to continue to improve on.

You dont need to tank to build a winning team....not sure why every fool thinks thats the case.
- Fakepartofme

Look, I'm in agreement with you; I've been saying for years now that the Leafs have to get good before they can get great.

But just not this year. Hell, we are only 48 games away from the end of the Leafs' season. In a deep draft year.

The offseason will also be crazy, with a lot of teams struggling for cap compliance.

I'm down with the Fakepartofme plan for the return of respectibility. Sign me up.

Let's just wait for 48 games before doing it.

Yzerman, 4th overall. Doughty, 2nd overall. The Leafs saved the Bruins and tanked for them. The Ducks had Niedermayer and Pronger, two guys who went 2nd and 3rd overall.
- Two_For_Truth

Ya but we have James van 40 points.