Richard Cloutier: Commissioner Cloutier's "Final Offer"
- Maxbone

You would need something on max variance from year to year. They’re pushing for that because the level of variance from year to year opens the door to getting around the cap. The PA is still trying to find ways to be sure they can get around the cap. It doesn’t matter what rules you put in, if there are ways around them, and that’s what he’s working for. If you take away heavily front loaded contracts, it makes it impossible to inflate salaries over the cap, and they’re trying to avoid that at all cost.

It’s funny that everybody knows these front loaded contracts are BS, but Fehr won’t let them go, isn’t it? It’s funny how some fools will point to him and say how’s negotiating in good faith, the good guy, etc, and yet, he’s sitting there fighting for ways to get around the rules. And for a shorter CBA.

He’s a douchebag that was brought in with the express intent of a legal battle. There was never any intent on his part to get a deal done. He’s wanted a big legal battle from day 1.

You would need something on max variance from year to year. They’re pushing for that because the level of variance from year to year opens the door to getting around the cap. The PA is still trying to find ways to be sure they can get around the cap. It doesn’t matter what rules you put in, if there are ways around them, and that’s what he’s working for. If you take away heavily front loaded contracts, it makes it impossible to inflate salaries over the cap, and they’re trying to avoid that at all cost.

It’s funny that everybody knows these front loaded contracts are BS, but Fehr won’t let them go, isn’t it? It’s funny how some fools will point to him and say how’s negotiating in good faith, the good guy, etc, and yet, he’s sitting there fighting for ways to get around the rules. And for a shorter CBA.

He’s a douchebag that was brought in with the express intent of a legal battle. There was never any intent on his part to get a deal done. He’s wanted a big legal battle from day 1.
- prock

This.

I don't think teams trying to resign their own UFAs should be given any sort of advantage.

Good thing you aren't the Commish. I see nothing limiting front loaded contract or burying players in the minor league. I see none of the 'loopholes' that have plagued the league being closed. Oh, and there is no way, small market teams are going to accept a system that takes 5+ years to get to 50/50.

You would need something on max variance from year to year. They’re pushing for that because the level of variance from year to year opens the door to getting around the cap. The PA is still trying to find ways to be sure they can get around the cap. It doesn’t matter what rules you put in, if there are ways around them, and that’s what he’s working for. If you take away heavily front loaded contracts, it makes it impossible to inflate salaries over the cap, and they’re trying to avoid that at all cost.

It’s funny that everybody knows these front loaded contracts are BS, but Fehr won’t let them go, isn’t it? It’s funny how some fools will point to him and say how’s negotiating in good faith, the good guy, etc, and yet, he’s sitting there fighting for ways to get around the rules. And for a shorter CBA.

He’s a douchebag that was brought in with the express intent of a legal battle. There was never any intent on his part to get a deal done. He’s wanted a big legal battle from day 1.
- prock

I agree with this 100%. Though i'm trying to figure out your location, and apparent Schultz hate-on. Young players are always viewed against comparables these days.

Leading up to the draft Murray was also being touted as a neidermayer comparable, Nail as Bure comparable etc. It's just what people do these days. It doesn't mean they will have a similar career.

As far as Schultz goes though. Do you know the most points scored by an Oiler D-man since Coffey left was Pronger's 56 pts. in 80 GP in 05/06.

The way Schultz has been dominating in the A,with his future teammates. I would say it's almost a given that he will surpass that total at some point as an Oiler, and become the highest scoring Oiler D-man since Coffey left.

If you find that location-worthy then have at er.

The players don't have an option anymore...they gave that power over to Fehr.

And imo, Fehr is much more likely to pull the trigger on a DOI than the players are.

I also find it kind of sad that Fehr let the players vote on a DOI, but not on the last offer the NHL submitted.
- Pen15

Simply not true. They can continue to negotiate a deal even after a DOI is filed.

You're looking at it as if they players and Fehr are divided. They are not. Fehr will do what the players want.

And your last point is highly inaccurate, Fehr does not control what the players vote on. he certainly has influence. And has no authority to stop the players from voting on whatever they choose to.

CBA Lenght: 10 years
Revenue Sharing: 50/50 starting this season.
Salary Cap: Ceiling set at 50% of revenues and no floor.
Maximum contract lenght: 6 years for own RFA/UFA. 4 years from other teams.
Entry level-contract: no bonuses, range from 2-4 years.
Contracts: each year can't be more/less than 20% of previous year.
Make-whole: none
Buy-outs: once per year, a week before the draft. Penalty: lose a draft pick depending on the $$$ of the buyout.

Players can take it or go play in Europe.
- chipiii

It needs to be 20% difference b/w all years not year over year. Your way would allow this.
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
8
6.4
5.1
4
3.2
Player would probably retire after year 9 or 10.

I agree with this 100%. Though i'm trying to figure out your location, and apparent Schultz hate-on. Young players are always viewed against comparables these days.

Leading up to the draft Murray was also being touted as a neidermayer comparable, Nail as Bure comparable etc. It's just what people do these days. It doesn't mean they will have a similar career.

As far as Schultz goes though. Do you know the most points scored by an Oiler D-man since Coffey left was Pronger's 56 pts. in 80 GP in 05/06.

The way Schultz has been dominating in the A,with his future teammates. I would say it's almost a given that he will surpass that total at some point as an Oiler, and become the highest scoring Oiler D-man since Coffey left.

If you find that location-worthy then have at er.
- steveb12344

You think it's a GIVEN that Schultz will be a 60 point Dman? Yikes. That's a little "over-ambitious".

I don't have a hate for the guy. But when you're blogger starts comparing him to hall of fame players, and that particular poster (gretzky.... need I say more?) starts to compare him to Niedermayer, I will mock them.

You think it's a GIVEN that Schultz will be a 60 point Dman? Yikes. That's a little "over-ambitious".

I don't have a hate for the guy. But when you're blogger starts comparing him to hall of fame players, and that particular poster (gretzky.... need I say more?) starts to compare him to Niedermayer, I will mock them.
- prock

Actually i said it was almost a given that he surpass 56 but whatever.

At this point he is 28gp 16g 24a 40p as a D-man. He has looked every bit as good as Eberle, and Hall, and has displayed amazing chemistry with Eberle in particular.

If the question is...Will he score more than 56pts in a season at some point as an Oiler. I don't see how anybody could bet against it. Would you?

Actually i said it was almost a given that he surpass 56 but whatever.

At this point he is 28gp 16g 24a 40p as a D-man. He has looked every bit as good as Eberle, and Hall, and has displayed amazing chemistry with Eberle in particular.

If the question is...Will he score more than 56pts in a season at some point as an Oiler. I don't see how anybody could bet against it. Would you?
- steveb12344

I cant remember the last time a guy posting amazing AHL numbers failed to duplicate the same production at the NHL level.

Why is it far fetched to bet against him getting 56 points? Only one dman last year had that much and more at 78 (Karlsson). The next best had 53. For the most part, getting 56 points is top 3 dmen in the league.

Any logical person would think that its a safer bet to go against a prospect being a top 3 player in the league than to be close to average or top 10-15. Nobody is saying Schultz cant be elite. The point is that its more likely he wont than he will.

Actually i said it was almost a given that he surpass 56 but whatever.

At this point he is 28gp 16g 24a 40p as a D-man. He has looked every bit as good as Eberle, and Hall, and has displayed amazing chemistry with Eberle in particular.

If the question is...Will he score more than 56pts in a season at some point as an Oiler. I don't see how anybody could bet against it. Would you?
- steveb12344

I absolutely would, because the odds are extremely slim that it happens.

I don’t blame you for looking at what he’s doing in the AHL, and being encouraged, but you might want to watch your optimism. It’s rare that dmen put up that many points in the AHL, but partly because if they start to, they get promoted out. It’s also rare they have NHL caliber players to play with in the AHL. So, it heavily skews things.

That said, it’s STILL not the first time someone has put up insane points. And you’d be shocked at how little it means in terms of translating to the NHL. When you look at players like Andy Delmore, and see that a guy like him can put up similar point totals, doesn’t it make you wonder how much point totals like this really translate to the NHL? It’s not as simple as saying “he’s going to put up 80 points in the AHL, he looks like he’ll be a top NHLer”. The list of players like Andy Delmore isn’t short.

At this point, he’s shown that he’s too good for the AHL. But he hasn’t shown he can hack it in the NHL, let alone be what you’re saying would be an offensive dman in the top 2 or 3 in the league.

You’re getting WAY ahead of yourself.

Simply not true. They can continue to negotiate a deal even after a DOI is filed.

You're looking at it as if they players and Fehr are divided. They are not. Fehr will do what the players want.

And your last point is highly inaccurate, Fehr does not control what the players vote on. he certainly has influence. And has no authority to stop the players from voting on whatever they choose to.
- MJL

If fehr files a DOI, the season will be cancelled...you heard it here first.

The players and fehr will be very divided if the season gets cancelled.

And per your last point, although fehr doesn't (by the book) control what the players vote on...he definitely has material influence over their train of thought. This is basiscally fact given that the majority of the players don't have a high school diploma, and need every offer the NHL puts forward translated to them in fehr speak.

I absolutely would, because the odds are extremely slim that it happens.

I don’t blame you for looking at what he’s doing in the AHL, and being encouraged, but you might want to watch your optimism. It’s rare that dmen put up that many points in the AHL, but partly because if they start to, they get promoted out. It’s also rare they have NHL caliber players to play with in the AHL. So, it heavily skews things.

That said, it’s STILL not the first time someone has put up insane points. And you’d be shocked at how little it means in terms of translating to the NHL. When you look at players like Andy Delmore, and see that a guy like him can put up similar point totals, doesn’t it make you wonder how much point totals like this really translate to the NHL? It’s not as simple as saying “he’s going to put up 80 points in the AHL, he looks like he’ll be a top NHLer”. The list of players like Andy Delmore isn’t short.

At this point, he’s shown that he’s too good for the AHL. But he hasn’t shown he can hack it in the NHL, let alone be what you’re saying would be an offensive dman in the top 2 or 3 in the league.

You’re getting WAY ahead of yourself.
- prock

How often do these high-scoring AHL'ers you mention play in an AHL that is rife with NHL talent? How often do these guys get those points while playing with thier NHL teammates? How often do these guys move up to the NHL and immediately get top PP time?

I think you would agree that these are not the usual circumstances for other AHL'ers

I'm not getting all crazy about it and proclaiming him the next Coffey or anything. But after watching pretty much all of his 28 games so far, the one thing that is obvious is that he is every bit as skilled offensively as the other Oiler wonderkids.

How often do these high-scoring AHL'ers you mention play in an AHL that is rife with NHL talent? How often do these guys get those points while playing with thier NHL teammates? How often do these guys move up to the NHL and immediately get top PP time?

I think you would agree that these are not the usual circumstances for other AHL'ers

I'm not getting all crazy about it and proclaiming him the next Coffey or anything. But after watching pretty much all of his 28 games so far, the one thing that is obvious is that he is every bit as skilled offensively as the other Oiler wonderkids.
- steveb12344

It's not "rife with NHL talent". There are only one or two players per team. And in fact, the Oilers are a team with more than that, which only skews it further.

Richard....Richard I love your blogs but I have to say you are living in a dream world with your proposal. I read your blogs daily with great anticipation and know you are not actually pro NHLPA so I am having difficulty with your proposal fr the following reasons:
First off your 10 year renewal doesn't get the CBA to 50-50 until year 8 - total win for the PA (never going to fly and why would an owner ever agree to this scenario)

Secondly buying players out at full contract value is another win for the players financially. They get paid out and then sign with another team (even if it is for less) for another gravey train. Here is a counter proposal .... pay them out and without a cap hit and they can not sign with another NHL team until their contracts expire. They can go play in Europe until then.

50-50 in year two on actual NHL revenue generated. Fans are fed up in Canada and pretty much indifferent in the US. As a season ticket holder in Edmonton I will go to games but will not buy ant NHL merchantize that I can guarantee you. In the USA 8 franchise cities will forget the NHL even existed and even the die hard NHL cities will struggle.


NHL needs to cancel the season.....players will be back next year at 50% of present salaries!

Richard....Richard I love your blogs but I have to say you are living in a dream world with your proposal. I read your blogs daily with great anticipation and know you are not actually pro NHLPA so I am having difficulty with your proposal fr the following reasons:
First off your 10 year renewal doesn't get the CBA to 50-50 until year 8 - total win for the PA (never going to fly and why would an owner ever agree to this scenario)

Secondly buying players out at full contract value is another win for the players financially. They get paid out and then sign with another team (even if it is for less) for another gravey train. Here is a counter proposal .... pay them out and without a cap hit and they can not sign with another NHL team until their contracts expire. They can go play in Europe until then.

50-50 in year two on actual NHL revenue generated. Fans are fed up in Canada and pretty much indifferent in the US. As a season ticket holder in Edmonton I will go to games but will not buy ant NHL merchantize that I can guarantee you. In the USA 8 franchise cities will forget the NHL even existed and even the die hard NHL cities will struggle.


NHL needs to cancel the season.....players will be back next year at 50% of present salaries!

I cant remember the last time a guy posting amazing AHL numbers failed to duplicate the same production at the NHL level.

Why is it far fetched to bet against him getting 56 points? Only one dman last year had that much and more at 78 (Karlsson). The next best had 53. For the most part, getting 56 points is top 3 dmen in the league.

Any logical person would think that its a safer bet to go against a prospect being a top 3 player in the league than to be close to average or top 10-15. Nobody is saying Schultz cant be elite. The point is that its more likely he wont than he will.
- systemtool

Jake Gardiner... 22gp 9g 8a 17p
Justin Schultz... 28gp 16g 24a 40p

Clearly the Oilers got the much better player out of the two.

The NHL also never should have made such an insulting first offer to the players.
- Maxbone

This is poop.

Everyone and their dog new that the initial offer was just something to immediately move the discussion to 50/50.

Players were at 57%. Initial offer was 43%.

Voila, meet at the middle: 50%.

Now we know why you aren't commissioner. they might have just gone on with the old CBA... but oh wait, the owners wouldn't do that.
Minimum soft landing to 50/50 in 2 years I would think. Drop to 56/44 immediately, then 53/47, then 50/50 might get traction. That would still require very little make whole money cause of expected growth.... Oh damn, I forgot, the NHL and NHLPA have completely screwed up the economics and expectations for league growth for awhile.

Never mind then.

Actually i said it was almost a given that he surpass 56 but whatever.

At this point he is 28gp 16g 24a 40p as a D-man. He has looked every bit as good as Eberle, and Hall, and has displayed amazing chemistry with Eberle in particular.

If the question is...Will he score more than 56pts in a season at some point as an Oiler. I don't see how anybody could bet against it. Would you?
- steveb12344

We don't know..

Most Points by a Defenseman, Season -- 96
Chris Snell, St. John's (1993-94, 22g, 74a)

Simply not true. They can continue to negotiate a deal even after a DOI is filed.

You're looking at it as if they players and Fehr are divided. They are not. Fehr will do what the players want.

And your last point is highly inaccurate, Fehr does not control what the players vote on. he certainly has influence. And has no authority to stop the players from voting on whatever they choose to.
- MJL

So the players are morons and can't blame anyone but themselves? Makes perfect sense to me

It needs to be 20% difference b/w all years not year over year. Your way would allow this.
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
8
6.4
5.1
4
3.2
Player would probably retire after year 9 or 10.
- dgutzman

Not with 4 year contract max, like he says.

If fehr files a DOI, the season will be cancelled...you heard it here first.

The players and fehr will be very divided if the season gets cancelled.

And per your last point, although fehr doesn't (by the book) control what the players vote on...he definitely has material influence over their train of thought. This is basiscally fact given that the majority of the players don't have a high school diploma, and need every offer the NHL puts forward translated to them in fehr speak.
- Pen15

That may very well be the case if the NHL decides to do so if the players fle a DOI.

The players backed the DOI and took a vote to show that they support the move. The vote was 706 to 22. So you think the players aren't aware of that potential consequence and will all of a sudden turn on Fehr if that happens? We'll see. I doubt it.

I agree totally that Fehr has infouence over the players. However I don't agree that the players are incapable of comprehending what it going on and needs everything translated to them by Fehr. That is just another one of those Hockeybuzz myths.

If fehr files a DOI, the season will be cancelled...you heard it here first.

The players and fehr will be very divided if the season gets cancelled.

And per your last point, although fehr doesn't (by the book) control what the players vote on...he definitely has material influence over their train of thought. This is basiscally fact given that the majority of the players don't have a high school diploma, and need every offer the NHL puts forward translated to them in fehr speak.
- Pen15

You see Prust's statements?

They take an escrow % off every check we get to make sure that no one is losing money. No one is losing money, it is a joke.

Obviously many of these players, no education, often dumb as bricks, don't understand the first thing about these negotiations or how these things work.

Jake Gardiner... 22gp 9g 8a 17p
Justin Schultz... 28gp 16g 24a 40p

Clearly the Oilers got the much better player out of the two.
- steveb12344

I never said Gardiner would surpass 56 points. If you suggested he wouldnt, I would completely agree with you.

Im not at all bothered you guys got Schultz and we got Gardiner. Im more envious of Hall, Yak, Ebs and RNH.