Cloutier do you get page views when people comment on your crap?

You can believe it or not, but the owners are not going to endure all the risk and headaches and financial loss, while players, who on average make 2 plus mill a year get paid when they play and even when they suck.
- TrueGrit

The Owners have been doing that for years. They will believe it or not continue to do that.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what the owners have given in these negotiations. We know they have taken almost $ 400 million. Easy question to answer for you???
- yttrohs

They've given the players a chance to earn millions, drive expensive cars, own big houses, post pictures of themselves with thousands of neatly packaged dollar bills at the tender age of 22, all with their grade 12 educations.

Owners trying to run a more profitable business, shame on them! They both play a role in this, but the players are absolutely out to lunch for holding out at this point over length of contracts that affects a small percentage of the membership. It's a pissing match now.

Why is that exactly?
- MJL

Wow...MJL is back!! No seriously...you actually add facts to the argument...always good.

*ahem* Lets start with the fact the that the NHLPA keep changing what they want out of a CBA? First is was adding more $$$ to the Make Whole. Then it was they wanted money for the pension fund. DONE. Then they come back with a proposal that they knew would infuriate the owners while going in front of the cameras saying the deal was oh so close.

What CRAP!!!

Everyone knows what the owners want out of this deal. 50/50 split on revenue, keeping the terms of individual players contracts to 5 years (7 for re-signing with current clubs) and long term CBA to prevent us having to go through this crap in another 5 years.

What's the end game for the NHLPA??? Other than honoring current contracts, no one knows. So I ask you, what is it the NHLPA is truly fighting for? I'm guessing it's stalling and hoping that the NHL will cave.

Big difference between the MLB back in the day when Fehr ran their PA and the current NHL...it takes only 8 teams to maintain this lock out. Think about that....

I have, and it works great. Because they are actually educated and smart enough to know that if we do not have enough money coming in then they make none of us will be here. It is simple math. I don't mean to be a Richard, but this is not an emotional issue. It is simple math.
- TrueGrit

If owning an NHL team was such a terrible, money loosing venture......people wouldn't be lined up to buy franchises like they are.

If owning an NHL team was such a terrible, money loosing venture......people wouldn't be lined up to buy franchises like they are.
- yttrohs

ya whatever! Who's lining up? Finding people stupid enough to lose millions upon millions of dollars to own one of these franchises is becoming an increasingly difficult task for the NHL.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what the owners have given in these negotiations. We know they have taken almost $ 400 million. Easy question to answer for you???
- yttrohs

Go watch the interview from Hockey Central @ Noon today for the update.

They've given the players a chance to earn millions, drive expensive cars, own big houses, post pictures of themselves with thousands of neatly packaged dollar bills at the tender age of 22, all with their grade 12 educations.

Owners trying to run a more profitable business, shame on them! They both play a role in this, but the players are absolutely out to lunch for holding out at this point over length of contracts that affects a small percentage of the membership. It's a pissing match now.
- LeftCoaster

Nobody has a problem with the Owners trying to run a more profitable business. I wish they would actually focus on what they really need to change instead of thinking that taking from the players is going to automatically change anything.
The players aren't given anything. They earn what they get. And they're paid to play Hockey, not due to their education level.
The NHLPA doesn't feel that the length of contracts only affects a small percentage of the membership.

I love hockey more than any sport. I love the culture, they guys everything.

But because sadly it is still a fringe sport in most of US, the league requires a great partnership between players and owners. More flexibility. Players want their due, I have no beef with that. But making a CBA that guesses the future is tough for both parties. And like it or not, Owners have more at risk.

ya whatever! Who's lining up? Finding people stupid enough to lose millions upon millions of dollars to own one of these franchises is becoming an increasingly difficult task for the NHL.
- LeftCoaster

7 new owners in 4 years

Wow...MJL is back!! No seriously...you actually add facts to the argument...always good.

*ahem* Lets start with the fact the that the NHLPA keep changing what they want out of a CBA? First is was adding more $$$ to the Make Whole. Then it was they wanted money for the pension fund. DONE. Then they come back with a proposal that they knew would infuriate the owners while going in front of the cameras saying the deal was oh so close.

What CRAP!!!

Everyone knows what the owners want out of this deal. 50/50 split on revenue, keeping the terms of individual players contracts to 5 years (7 for re-signing with current clubs) and long term CBA to prevent us having to go through this crap in another 5 years.

What's the end game for the NHLPA??? Other than honoring current contracts, no one knows. So I ask you, what is it the NHLPA is truly fighting for? I'm guessing it's stalling and hoping that the NHL will cave.

Big difference between the MLB back in the day when Fehr ran their PA and the current NHL...it takes only 8 teams to maintain this lock out. Think about that....
- cdninatl

That's all nice but you didn't answer the question. Based on your statement you believe that the NHLPA is not negotiating in good faith because they didn't accept the Owner's latest offer?

If owning an NHL team was such a terrible, money loosing venture......people wouldn't be lined up to buy franchises like they are.
- yttrohs

My friend, they are not lined up. Havent you seen how the league has to carry teams and qualify owners. I work in wealth management. The key to sports ownership is cash flow and not necessarily profit. But the fact is, when you have teams losing 20 and 30 million a year....that is half your payroll. Again, that is not to say teams could/should be in better places, and that owners and their front office could do better marketing their teams, but at the end of the day you can't pump water from a dry well.

It is romantic to want to own a team, but one look at the books and cash burn of teams, would make most run the other direction or low ball offers.

The owners need to settle the in house problems such as controlling crazy contracts. They bring that crap on themselves. The players shouldn't have to save the owners from themselves.

My friend, they are not lined up. Havent you seen how the league has to carry teams and qualify owners. I work in wealth management. The key to sports ownership is cash flow and not necessarily profit. But the fact is, when you have teams losing 20 and 30 million a year....that is half your payroll. Again, that is not to say teams could/should be in better places, and that owners and their front office could do better marketing their teams, but at the end of the day you can't pump water from a dry well.

It is romantic to want to own a team, but one look at the books and cash burn of teams, would make most run the other direction or low ball offers.
- TrueGrit

Since you work in wealth management, I want to ask you a question. Would the franchise value of a team grow significantly if the franchise was losing 10-20-30 million a year?

Anyone who has an objective thought on the subject can't possibly believe that the NHL is one negotiating. Every two weeks they are "DONE" negotiating. Until the next terrible take it or leave it offer.
- yttrohs

Keep drinking the players kool aid. (frank) the PA and (frank) Fehr

That's all nice but you didn't answer the question. Based on your statement you believe that the NHLPA is not negotiating in good faith because they didn't accept the Owner's latest offer?
- MJL

Allow me please....

The bad faith, the party foul, the lack of decorum, was sticking Crosby and players in as pawns, having owners concede things while believing they were actually moving towards an agreement....then at the last minute, the pull the puppets out and counter with more crap....that is bad faith.

Asking for anything is not good or bad faith. Changing goal posts all the time and offering half baked proposals with a strategy of trying to get more and more and more...is bush league. In any negotiation you decide in advance what you want best case and what you would settle for...and you work in that range. If you go and tried to get the most for anything in a negotiation, you will lose everytime. Because after one round of that, the opposition will walk away.

That's all nice but you didn't answer the question. Based on your statement you believe that the NHLPA is not negotiating in good faith because they didn't accept the Owner's latest offer?
- MJL

Did you not read the first paragraph?? It's where I said that the players keep changing what they want out of a CBA. OK...technically it was the second paragraph...

So I ask again...what is it, besides honoring current contracts, are the players fighting for? What's their end game? Everyone here knows what the owners want...what do the players want out of a CBA?

Allow me please....

The bad faith, the party foul, the lack of decorum, was sticking Crosby and players in as pawns, having owners concede things while believing they were actually moving towards an agreement....then at the last minute, the pull the puppets out and counter with more crap....that is bad faith.

Asking for anything is not good or bad faith. Changing goal posts all the time and offering half baked proposals with a strategy of trying to get more and more and more...is bush league. In any negotiation you decide in advance what you want best case and what you would settle for...and you work in that range. If you go and tried to get the most for anything in a negotiation, you will lose everytime. Because after one round of that, the opposition will walk away.
- TrueGrit

No that's not bad faith. That is negotiating. What's bad faith is telling the players that if you bring your Executive Director back into the process, then the deal is off the table.
Offering counter proposals and trying to get a better deal is not bush league. It is negotiating. The players are trying to get the most for anything? They're the only side doing any giving.

Since you work in wealth management, I want to ask you a question. Would the franchise value of a team grow significantly if the franchise was losing 10-20-30 million a year?
- MJL

Of course not. That is why we are where we are. You need healthy teams and owners. That is the bottom line. The more teams that are healthy, the more you can grow your business, and the more you can pay your employees. Most people pay 5 to 7 years of cash flow (not necessarily accounting profit). So if you had a company that was making 20 million a year, you can expect to sell it for 100 million..plus what other assets are valued at. You buy cash flow.....

Did you not read the first paragraph?? It's where I said that the players keep changing what they want out of a CBA. OK...technically it was the second paragraph...

So I ask again...what is it, besides honoring current contracts, are the players fighting for? What's their end game? Everyone here knows what the owners want...what do the players want out of a CBA?
- cdninatl

The player haven't kept changing what they want. The players are willing to move towards 50/50. They want Contracts honored. And they want to keep some of the contract concessions they got in the last CBA. It hasn't changed.
The problem is that the Owners can't get what they want. That's why there isn't a deal. They aren't willing to give anything to the players.

No that's not bad faith. That is negotiating. What's bad faith is telling the players that if you bring your Executive Director back into the process, then the deal is off the table.
Offering counter proposals and trying to get a better deal is not bush league. It is negotiating. The players are trying to get the most for anything? They're the only side doing any giving.
- MJL

Well when you go out and represent that your guys are making binding commitments, then you get a concession...then pull the rug and move goal posts again...you can call it what you want....but what history will prove is that the PA overplayed their hand, and many players lost a few more paychecks trying to get more.

The owners would not have agreed to certain aspects, and even Fehr affirmed it when he said they were getting close(r) that afternoon.

Cloutier do you get page views when people comment on your crap?
- trolleytracks

You know what? I don't know the exact answer to that question. I get page views when people read the blog, but you don't need to read the blog to post a comment.

Of course not. That is why we are where we are. You need healthy teams and owners. That is the bottom line. The more teams that are healthy, the more you can grow your business, and the more you can pay your employees. Most people pay 5 to 7 years of cash flow (not necessarily accounting profit). So if you had a company that was making 20 million a year, you can expect to sell it for 100 million..plus what other assets are valued at. You buy cash flow.....
- TrueGrit

Of course not? Then how do you explain that NHL team's franchise value is growing significantly every year? The Coyotes are probably the franchise that is struggling the most. Yet the franchise value has increased by 69% over the last decade.

Well when you go out and represent that your guys are making binding commitments, then you get a concession...then pull the rug and move goal posts again...you can call it what you want....but what history will prove is that the PA overplayed their hand, and many players lost a few more paychecks trying to get more.

The owners would not have agreed to certain aspects, and even Fehr affirmed it when he said they were getting close(r) that afternoon.
- TrueGrit

Who has made any binding commitments?

The player haven't kept changing what they want. The players are willing to move towards 50/50. They want Contracts honored. And they want to keep some of the contract concessions they got in the last CBA. It hasn't changed.
The problem is that the Owners can't get what they want. That's why there isn't a deal. They aren't willing to give anything to the players.
- MJL

I know who you voted for in the last election. You either can't see it or do not want to ...it is spelled out.