...Spin doctors are at work...
- MJL

Exactly, the NHL goes to great lengths to control the message (see: their fight with Dolan over web content), up to and including social engineering message boards to direct the conversation where they want it to go. Fortunately for the league, most people are sheep who are just waiting for someone to give them direction and purpose.

For the people who refuse to believe social engineering happens, I'd direct them to a decade ago when Sony employees got caught on various movie message boards posting false favourable reviews for their films, negative ones about other studios films, and attacking posters who disagree.

It's very rare they get caught, but as a long time (and quite jaded) internet poster, I remember, and as a result, I'm quite skeptical whenever opinions on message boards swing wildly in one direction like this, especially when on the level of the general public in the street, it's about 50/50 when it comes to player/owner blame for the ongoing lockout.

If they spent as much time trying to work out a deal as they are trying to control the message, we might have had hockey by now.

It would be so funny to see how all the pro-owner crowd reacts if the PA ever does decertify. Free markets would not br pretty to a franchise like the oilers.
- Canada Cup

You are kidding right?

I think most of the Pro-owner group would like nothing more. There is nothing that would be worse.

Exactly, the NHL goes to great lengths to control the message (see: their fight with Dolan over web content), up to and including social engineering message boards to direct the conversation where they want it to go. Fortunately for the league, most people are sheep who are just waiting for someone to give them direction and purpose.

For the people who refuse to believe social engineering happens, I'd direct them to a decade ago when Sony employees got caught on various movie message boards posting false favourable reviews for their films, negative ones about other studios films, and attacking posters who disagree.

It's very rare they get caught, but as a long time (and quite jaded) internet poster, I remember, and as a result, I'm quite skeptical whenever opinions on message boards swing wildly in one direction like this, especially when on the level of the general public in the street, it's about 50/50 when it comes to player/owner blame for the ongoing lockout.

If they spent as much time trying to work out a deal as they are trying to control the message, we might have had hockey by now.
- The Shrike

i didnt know this. but not at all surprised. ive always wondered about this sort of stuff when i read any sort of review.

it seems to have swung wildly in the owners direction (which it didnt seem to be at all in the beginning) for a few reasons.

first reason imo, is just plain common sense.
as well as fehrs unwillingness to negotiate, the constant games hes played and the misleading info or flat out untruths hes given at times.
but most importantly, care for the league and sport as a whole. not just how much money your group can pocket.
a healthy league for all involved is paramount to long term success.
which doesnt seem to be of any interest to fehr at all.

for someone to make bettman look like the good guy in the publics eye is pretty astounding.

and although some may seem super emotional, i dont think anyone truly believes that the players were completely wrong from the start. but as time ticks on it gets more exasperating.
the owners have come quite aways from their original offer, everyones paid a price, now its time to sign the deal and play hockey.

side note: have the players actually agreed to 50/50 yet? i keep hearing it's so, but is it? it seems to all be based on years, inital raises, guarantees, amount of make whole, contingencies etc etc etc etc.

You are kidding right?

I think most of the Pro-owner group would like nothing more. There is nothing that would be worse.
- Aetherial

he was...kinda

it was just a weak attempt at a diss on the oiler fans he was in debate with. because of some players not seeing it as a first choice destination in the past.
winning will, and already is, changing all that. not to mention, they're a have team with money as well

gotta say..thank effin god nylander and heatley said no!!

like justin schultz was?

and ud have to include the leafs in this assesment too huh?
actually i take it back, uve been able to lure such highly sought after big name free agents as jeff finger, jason blake and tim connolly.
a free agent hot spot unlike any other
- hugefemale dog77

No draft, existing contracts for all your stars torn up and a complete free market - how could that be good for the Oilers and where did I say the Leafs would do well? You might do well in life to slow down and think things through a bit before you start throwing poop around.

he was...kinda

it was just a weak attempt at a diss on the oiler fans he was in debate with. because of some players not seeing it as a first choice destination in the past.
winning will, and already is, changing all that. not to mention, they're a have team with money as well

gotta say..thank effin god nylander and heatley said no!!
- hugefemale dog77

Actually I wasn't in a debate with anyone but I figured it would make for a better discussion that Cloutier's weak ass - Fehr kicked out Iggy topic.

...side note: have the players actually agreed to 50/50 yet? i keep hearing it's so, but is it? it seems to all be based on years, inital raises, guarantees, amount of make whole, contingencies etc etc etc etc.
- hugefemale dog77

They agreed to 50/50 on the back end of a contract, but want make whole up front.

I thought that was pretty fair, the dollar amount of the player contracts that have already been signed will diminish significantly each year, so you'd end with with something like: 55%, 53%, 51%, 50.1%, 50%, 50% on a six year deal.

If the league can get them to add two more (didn't the NHLPA already offer this?) years, that would mean the last 5 years would essentially be 50%, with that precedent most likely carrying forward into any new CBA beyond that.

Surely, in the first three years, revenue sharing plus expansion fees for two new teams would provide enough funding to carry the leagues lemons until the absolute 50/50 formula kicks in after that.

Herbal Magic sweetchunks.

What did I do to anyone but point out that Edmonton would be one of the least appealing places for UFA's? Speaking of biggest homers here at hockeybuzz. If switching from Laughs291831923 to long widebottom gets old quick, you should quit now.
- systemtool

WOW I must say that is quite the comeback. I know one thing for sure Laughs will never be confused for me. I do know that immature name calling is another way to show that when the chips are down you have no clue how to win an arguement. Wow thats as good as me telling you your mother wears army boots to win an arguement. But ok have it your way MJL.

They agreed to 50/50 on the back end of a contract, but want make whole up front.

I thought that was pretty fair, the dollar amount of the player contracts that have already been signed will diminish significantly each year, so you'd end with with something like: 55%, 53%, 51%, 50.1%, 50%, 50% on a six year deal.

If the league can get them to add two more (didn't the NHLPA already offer this?) years, that would mean the last 5 years would essentially be 50%, with that precedent most likely carrying forward into any new CBA beyond that.

Surely, in the first three years, revenue sharing plus expansion fees for two new teams would provide enough funding to carry the leagues lemons until the absolute 50/50 formula kicks in after that.
- The Shrike

well, at first it was guaranteed money which the owners of course said get fuked.
then they said theyd come off guarantees for a percentage based share like the owners wanted...as long as they were guaranteed that theyd never get less than the previous year regardless of league revenue.!!.

now they seem to be willing to take the immediate 50 (?) as long as its over time and they dont actually ever end up losing money. (a time frame set up so that when they hit 50, that 50 will actually be more in actual dollars than the 57 they currently have)

not to mention all the rhetoric about "not wanting lockouts anymore or work stoppages", but the refusal of a long term CBA??!!
and the subsequent counter proposal for a short one that happens to end right on the 100th anniversary. which incidentally would also give them a TON of strike leverage...

while i think the big picture is certainly much closer, apparently fehr actually told them NOT to take the last make whole offer of 300 mil!

All of the above has absolutely zero to do with my statement on the blog that Cloutier wrote that stated St. Louis has been kept out of the process.

But I fully understand why you need to post personal insults, and deflect from the actual point. It's to be expected.

I think you have been wrong every step of the way. I said it so it must be true!
- MJL

Wow you sound eerily like Systemtool and his arguement with MLB. Or his arguement there has been no noticable improvement in Edmonton. Or his arguement that Edmonton is a pathetic city. Hmmmm
makes you wonder.

For those of you suggesting Upshall is not Winter's client, Winter is the founder and CEO of The Sports Corporation. Their website says Upshall is client. So...yes, there is a Winter/Upshall connection, as Upshall's represented by TSC.

Unless their website is wrong, of course.

For those of you suggesting Upshall is not Winter's client, Winter is the founder and CEO of The Sports Corporation. Their website says Upshall is client. So...yes, there is a Winter/Upshall connection, as Upshall's represented by TSC.

Unless their website is wrong, of course.
- Maxbone

Nobody cares Richard...

...nobody cares

For those of you suggesting Upshall is not Winter's client, Winter is the founder and CEO of The Sports Corporation. Their website says Upshall is client. So...yes, there is a Winter/Upshall connection, as Upshall's represented by TSC.

Unless their website is wrong, of course.
- Maxbone

Clayton Magnet now dere was a guy

Nobody cares Richard...

...nobody cares
- Leafs43

But you cared enough to take the time to comment to explain this.

How sweet.

But you cared enough to take the time to comment to explain this.

How sweet.
- Maxbone

Just a joke big guy. Watched the episode of Scrubs where that phrase is used, been using it all day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw2ub-o4gg

So you're saying that the Labor laws don't apply to Professional Athletes?

Is there a different legal system for Pro Sports? Is that special system the same one that the NHL filed their class action suit in?
- MJL

I am saying trying to sue for unfair labor practices is pretty hard when you have the cushiest job on the planet earth is plain Idiotic. By the way the NHL has a case for a class action suit. The players have been bargining in bad faith- citing making the owners wait sometime for up to 6 hours on scheduled meeting dates, Never offering a complete offer, changing the issues mid negotiation, threating to decertify one several occasions. The NHL can also use MLB as the Motive. When Fehr decertified the MLB union and won his class action suits the players recieved triple their Salaries in Damages back hence the rich 8-10 million dollar players would recieve 24-30 million dollars compensation. Motive enough for any player to hold out the season to me anyhow. Pure greed.
And you have the Gall to try and compare them to real people and real cases where people actually are being abused(for which these laws were made for)??????

But you cared enough to take the time to comment to explain this.

How sweet.
- Maxbone

We care about you as a person. That's different.

as angry and emotional as this post is; i believe it's really the crux of the decert argument.

im admittedly fairly naive on the subject, but there are other leagues. leagues that many of the players are making a living in currently. they have options. if u dont like the nhl's brand of business you are more than able to opt for europe or a lesser league here.

while the collusion stuff ive read is certainly tricky, and not quite as open and shut for the owners as some seem to believe. there are other options open to the players. i cant see how this works out well for them in court.

unless the disclaimer of interest is something else altogether and not just different because of the PA vote or no vote
- hugefemale dog77

DOI and decertifcation as TSN lawyer Erik Mac... said the other day they are basically the same thing from two differnt sides. D O I is the easier route to go as it is the Union saying the can't represent the players anymore they just have to file the paper work then the players can start to file class action law suits from that very day. Where as the Decertifacation route is the players the Union is not serving their best interests, then there has to be a vote on it with a certian amount of majority to pass it, then and only then once this is proven the players can file class action lawsuits.
For the class action lawsuits to be brought forth from the players side I believe they have to prove the NHL is barganing in bad faith. A seperate issue.

I am saying trying to sue for unfair labor practices is pretty hard when you have the cushiest job on the planet earth is plain Idiotic. By the way the NHL has a case for a class action suit. The players have been bargining in bad faith- citing making the owners wait sometime for up to 6 hours on scheduled meeting dates, Never offering a complete offer, changing the issues mid negotiation, threating to decertify one several occasions. The NHL can also use MLB as the Motive. When Fehr decertified the MLB union and won his class action suits the players recieved triple their Salaries in Damages back hence the rich 8-10 million dollar players would recieve 24-30 million dollars compensation. Motive enough for any player to hold out the season to me anyhow. Pure greed.
And you have the Gall to try and compare them to real people and real cases where people actually are being abused(for which these laws were made for)??????
- longbottom

Cool story but I don't think MLB union decertified. They did sue the owners for collusion and won. Other than the legal analysis was fun. I kept hearing Jack Nicholson saying "you cant handle the truth". By the way, making someone wait isn't negotiating in bad faith it is just negotiating with bad manners.

Wow you sound eerily like Systemtool and his arguement with MLB. Or his arguement there has been no noticable improvement in Edmonton. Or his arguement that Edmonton is a pathetic city. Hmmmm
makes you wonder.
- longbottom

Again, none of that has anything to do with the point that I've made. And it's a point that you have not refuted to this point. Because you obviously can't. So far through all of this, I've been accused of being an NHL player, an NHL agent, and now of being another poster. Pretty funny.

What I don't wonder is why you and other posters have to resort to that tactic. Of deflecting away from the actual subject matter and instead talking about the poster. I know exactly why you have to do that.

And you have the Gall to try and compare them to real people and real cases where people actually are being abused(for which these laws were made for)??????
- longbottom

Where exactly did I compare NHL players to real people and real cases, where people actually are being abused?



I'll be waiting for you to provide that.

Again, none of that has anything to do with the point that I've made. And it's a point that you have not refuted to this point. Because you obviously can't. So far through all of this, I've been accused of being an NHL player, an NHL agent, and now of being another poster. Pretty funny.

What I don't wonder is why you and other posters have to resort to that tactic. Of deflecting away from the actual subject matter and instead talking about the poster. I know exactly why you have to do that.
- MJL

Its all the players fault. Anyone with a brain knows this.

Its all the players fault. Anyone with a brain knows this.
- sanfordnson

Well that's convincing!


Maybe you can work for the NHL's legal team.

Well that's convincing!


Maybe you can work for the NHL's legal team.
- MJL

You've provided no facts to refute me. the victory in this argument is mine.

You've provided no facts to refute me. the victory in this argument is mine.
- sanfordnson

My reply was not an attempt to refute you. No reply was necessary for that. Your post refutes itself. Simply because no one with half a brain would post that.