Thing is... even if every Canadian team was/is terrible, or not winning cups, they have no problem putting butts in the seats, and you really can't say the same about most american teams. It does not matter if they are competitive or not the fans will show up. Not attacking you, just my two cents.
- Deadmau55

Thats the quandry we are in. You have two countries sharing a league. Those two countries have nearly identical societies except in one aspect. Hockey. In the US hockey, like any other business, has to be good in order to have a lot of customers. In Canada, hockey is far more than a business. It is culture, it is THE identity. Then mix in the fact that for some reason Canadian teams can't win the cup anymore when they used to win most of the cups in a decade. AND the fact that most cups in the last decade have gone to southern teams. Then throw in 2 lockouts where potentially no one has an opportunity to win a cup. Thats a recipe for some serious frustration.

Thing is... even if every Canadian team was/is terrible, or not winning cups, they have no problem putting butts in the seats, and you really can't say the same about most american teams. It does not matter if they are competitive or not the fans will show up. Not attacking you, just my two cents.
- Deadmau55

I get what you're saying, but that is through no fault of the US fans. The logic behind placing a professional ice hockey team in the middle of the desert, or in year round tropical climates is about as misguided as it gets. The entire country of Canada is predominantly cold climate. These people live eat and breathe winter sports, primarily hockey! However, that doesn't necessarily translate into higher success and growth of the sport(NHL). Teams still need to win to stay relevant. Do most of the Canadian teams still have the edge on stronger revenues? 3 do for sure but the other 4 should then be considered below average if we are to believe that Canada is the more viable market because they(Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa) are right in the middle of all the American teams. I think there is just to much credence given to claims that Canada should have more teams than the US. Quebec lost their team and Winnipeg is on it's second go round, so it's not like Canada is necessarily fail safe by any means.

@FriedgeHNIC's 30 Thoughts he says the teams driving the lockout are BOS, ANA, CLB, FLA, NYI, PHX, STL, WSH and DAL.


we could do without most of those teams.....lets just move forward without them
- Barx

Phoenix?? wtf?

damn you mayans for predicting the lockout!

@FriedgeHNIC's 30 Thoughts he says the teams driving the lockout are BOS, ANA, CLB, FLA, NYI, PHX, STL, WSH and DAL.


we could do without most of those teams.....lets just move forward without them
- Barx

So Lets get this straight, outside of Boston and maybe the Caps, 6 teams that bring in a combined 10% of revenue are holding up the other teams from having a season.

How effed up is that?
That would be the equivilent of in the upcoming US election Rhode Island, Montana and North Dakota having as many electoral votes as NY California and PA.

When our league is more screwed up than US politics we are all in for a LONG COLD WINTER!!!!

Winter classics suck I don't even waste my time watching it . The same goes for the Allstar games waste of time

So Lets get this straight, outside of Boston and maybe the Caps, 6 teams that bring in a combined 10% of revenue are holding up the other teams from having a season.

How effed up is that?
That would be the equivilent of in the upcoming US election Rhode Island, Montana and North Dakota having as many electoral votes as NY California and PA.

When our league is more screwed up than US politics we are all in for a LONG COLD WINTER!!!!
- mantosh

rumor has it i will be winning the lottery. would you believe it if i wrote it on twitter?

At what point do we conclude that this lockout is more about breaking this union than it is about the actual numeric discrepancy?

Now?
After the Winter Classic is cancelled?
If the season is cancelled?

Or do we believe the owners are bargaining in good faith, without intent to break the union... right up until they bring in the scabs.

I would say that "now" this is all about Fehr's tactics making it personal and the owners taking a stand.

If they cancel the season, I think we definitely have to wonder about the goal being to break the union.
- Aetherial

I believe the owners are bargaining in good faith. They even bargained against themselves by putting out two proposals in a row. Thier last proposal was reasonable and worth bargaining from.

So Lets get this straight, outside of Boston and maybe the Caps, 6 teams that bring in a combined 10% of revenue are holding up the other teams from having a season.

How effed up is that?
That would be the equivilent of in the upcoming US election Rhode Island, Montana and North Dakota having as many electoral votes as NY California and PA.

When our league is more screwed up than US politics we are all in for a LONG COLD WINTER!!!!
- mantosh

I'm going to call B.S. on that report. If there were really just 9 holdout teams, it implies one of two things:

1. Bettman's position is the same as the other 21 teams who are either "ready to go" or not so opposed that they want to keep delaying. Seeing as how any deal he approves of only needs a simple majority, the question that begs asking is "if that's the case, why hasn't anyone called for a vote?"

2. Bettman's position is the same as the 9 "holdout" teams, in which case it requires 23 owners (a 3/4 majority) to vote to approve a deal over his objection. However, those 21 owners could just as easily band together and call for a vote to remove Bettman from office, and that only requires a 2/3rds majority (or 20 votes). This also begs a question: "if Bettman's really standing in the way of 21 other teams, why hasn't anyone called for a vote to kick him out and put in someone who will vote to approve a deal the majority will back?"

Neither of those have simple answers, unless you're willing to jump through lots of hoops along the way. As such, I doubt everything is being held up by just 9 teams - it's just a great report designed to stir up the masses.

BTW, yes - all 30 owners have an equal vote. Equating voting rights in a pro sports organization to the Electoral College is like relating your ability to drive a 1998 Toyota Corolla at 25mph in a residential neighborhood with no one else around and the street completely clear to the ability of Jeff Gordon to drive a Chevrolet at 200mph at Talledega in a pack of 35 cars going 3-wide through the corner.

Actually the finger should be pointed at Buffalo. The Sabres are a huge driver of the lockout. It all goes back to 06-07 where they should have signed Drury, Briere and Campbell to reasonable contracts(that the players admitted they would have signed no questions asked). Instead they hit the market and got more money, driving inflation.
- Buffalo--Sabres

Wow ....... just, wow.

rumor has it i will be winning the lottery. would you believe it if i wrote it on twitter?
- joshs

IF Dreger wrote it about hockey I would believe it.

If the girl who picks the lottery balls. Yolanda Vega said you won the lottery I would believe her.

I blame players as much as owners. Right now they all suck!

Phoenix?? wtf?
- scotch_tape

Do they even have a owner??.....Nevermind it's Butman...

interest....

dwindelling....

cant hold on much..
longer...

I'm going to call B.S. on that report. If there were really just 9 holdout teams, it implies one of two things:

1. Bettman's position is the same as the other 21 teams who are either "ready to go" or not so opposed that they want to keep delaying. Seeing as how any deal he approves of only needs a simple majority, the question that begs asking is "if that's the case, why hasn't anyone called for a vote?"

2. Bettman's position is the same as the 9 "holdout" teams, in which case it requires 23 owners (a 3/4 majority) to vote to approve a deal over his objection. However, those 21 owners could just as easily band together and call for a vote to remove Bettman from office, and that only requires a 2/3rds majority (or 20 votes). This also begs a question: "if Bettman's really standing in the way of 21 other teams, why hasn't anyone called for a vote to kick him out and put in someone who will vote to approve a deal the majority will back?"

Neither of those have simple answers, unless you're willing to jump through lots of hoops along the way. As such, I doubt everything is being held up by just 9 teams - it's just a great report designed to stir up the masses.

BTW, yes - all 30 owners have an equal vote. Equating voting rights in a pro sports organization to the Electoral College is like relating your ability to drive a 1998 Toyota Corolla at 25mph in a residential neighborhood with no one else around and the street completely clear to the ability of Jeff Gordon to drive a Chevrolet at 200mph at Talledega in a pack of 35 cars going 3-wide through the corner.
- Irish Blues

I am sure that there are some teams on the fence that believe they could use a lockout to fill their pockets but I think that the "big money" teams want to play unless they are so freaking greedy that proifitting 50-80 mil a year isnt enough.

Your analogy does not apply. I am equating revenue to people while you are equating one skill set to another.

I know that they eaxh get 1 vote but the Leafs and Flyers owners dont have more skill than the Coyotes and Islanders they just bring in wayyyy more money so they should have more power.

In a democracy me and you should have the same influence as Donald Trump and Bill Gates etc. but there is no way in hell that we do unless you are super rich and if thats the case good for you.

I just want this to end so that I can continue to actually watch hockey. Both players and owners are in the wrong. There should be a solution somewhere.

Wow ....... just, wow.
- Irish Blues

I think that was mostly sarcastic.

Geeze yeah, all but maybe 3 wouldn't really be missed, although there may be come variations on which 3.
- Aetherial

Should be two tier league just like in Baseball with single A ball and triple AAA ball

Shorter seasons lower cap and then the top tier higher cap 82 games.

Wow ....... just, wow.
- Irish Blues

I blew your (frank)ing mind huh?

I think that was mostly sarcastic.
- buffalofan19

No I was serious. The Leino and Erhoff contracts drove up inflation in the league. Do you guys not understand how this works? Lamo gets signed for way more than he is worth, so when some team offers another player, lets say a mike fisher an offer, his agent counters with "are you kidding me? Leino got 'x' amount of dollars, therefore my guy is worth more".


There were also reports that Pegula was going after Richards and basically anyone else you have heard of the last 2 years on the market. Even if the player has no interest in buffalo the agent uses that against the other teams to get his guy more dough.

No I was serious. The Leino and Erhoff contracts drove up inflation in the league. Do you guys not understand how this works? Lamo gets signed for way more than he is worth, so when some team offers another player, lets say a mike fisher an offer, his agent counters with "are you kidding me? Leino got 'x' amount of dollars, therefore my guy is worth more".


There were also reports that Pegula was going after Richards and basically anyone else you have heard of the last 2 years on the market. Even if the player has no interest in buffalo the agent uses that against the other teams to get his guy more dough.
- Buffalo--Sabres

Thatsot just a Buffalo thing though. The rangers for example, have been guilty of doing that to teams for years. Remember the 3 year offer to Joe Sakic while he was RFA? I can't remember if it was the Rangers or the Red Wings, but it was massive at the time.

I am sure that there are some teams on the fence that believe they could use a lockout to fill their pockets but I think that the "big money" teams want to play unless they are so freaking greedy that proifitting 50-80 mil a year isnt enough.
- mantosh

Never underestimate the power of greed.

Your analogy does not apply. I am equating revenue to people while you are equating one skill set to another.
- mantosh

You're missing the broader point: your analogy still doesn't hold.

I know that they eaxh get 1 vote but the Leafs and Flyers owners dont have more skill than the Coyotes and Islanders they just bring in wayyyy more money so they should have more power.
- mantosh

In your opinion. Imagine if that same logic was applied to voting in general.

No I was serious. The Leino and Erhoff contracts drove up inflation in the league. Do you guys not understand how this works? Lamo gets signed for way more than he is worth, so when some team offers another player, lets say a mike fisher an offer, his agent counters with "are you kidding me? Leino got 'x' amount of dollars, therefore my guy is worth more".
- Buffalo--Sabres

Let's go back in history and get the facts right.

Remember the summer of 2006? That was the one before Drury and Briere hit the FA market; that was the one where Boston signed Zdeno Chara for 5 years, $35 million. The year prior? Anaheim signed Scott Niedermayer for 4 years, $27 million (New Jersey was willing to give him the then-max of $7.8 million per) and Chicago signed Nikolai Khabibulin for 4 years, $27 million. Tampa had signed Brad Richards to a then-max contract of 5 years, $39 million during the '05-06 season. The first 3 of those guys were UFA, Richards was coming off a Conn Smythe-winning Cup run and was starting to overshadow Lecavalier. There were a few other big-name UFA signings, but those 3 were the most notable to change teams via the FA market.

The next summer? Drury signed for 5/35.25 with the Rangers, Briere signed for 8/52 with the Flyers ... but both of those guys were UFA. Based on prior years, those contracts were fully expected; after all UFA's were supposed to get the big dollars. You want to know where salary inflation for the younger guys really kicked off? That would have been right around July 4, 2007 when Kevin Lowe got Thomas Vanek to sign an offer sheet. Vanek was a 23-year old guy who had 163 games under his belt, was 68-64-132 and coming off a 43-goal season, and Lowe signed him to a 7-year, $50 million offer sheet - and that offer sheet was going to get lobbed whether Buffalo had brought back Drury and/or Briere or not (and if anything, had either of those guys been back the Sabres would have struggled to match).

Huge signing bonuses? That also started right there, because Lowe offered Vanek $8 million in signing bonuses over the first 2 years.

Campbell? He didn't get his huge contract until the summer of 2008, after the Sabres had dealt him to the Sharks for another (failed) Cup run.

The Sabres were responsible for the explosion in player salaries? Hardly. There were several other teams much more responsible for it, all the Sabres did was follow everyone else's lead - and even that took Pegula taking over to do.

@FriedgeHNIC's 30 Thoughts he says the teams driving the lockout are BOS, ANA, CLB, FLA, NYI, PHX, STL, WSH and DAL.


we could do without most of those teams.....lets just move forward without them
- Barx

If thats the case im not surpised in the least. I still think there are 2 vastly different sets of owners.

Frankly, the ones losing money and watching others drive up the costs of players are sticking to the other owners for not having revenue sharing.

I believe the owners are bargaining in good faith. They even bargained against themselves by putting out two proposals in a row. Thier last proposal was reasonable and worth bargaining from.
- Jacob582

I don't think the owners are bargaining in good faith, because the owners know the players will cave. They are being bullies and it will work.

The players need to be practical and figure out a way to get the best deal possible, under the circumstances, otherwise they will end up losing a lot more than outlined in the last owners' proposal.

The longer this goes, the bigger benefit to the owners.

Let's go back in history and get the facts right.

Remember the summer of 2006? That was the one before Drury and Briere hit the FA market; that was the one where Boston signed Zdeno Chara for 5 years, $35 million. The year prior? Anaheim signed Scott Niedermayer for 4 years, $27 million (New Jersey was willing to give him the then-max of $7.8 million per) and Chicago signed Nikolai Khabibulin for 4 years, $27 million. Tampa had signed Brad Richards to a then-max contract of 5 years, $39 million during the '05-06 season. The first 3 of those guys were UFA, Richards was coming off a Conn Smythe-winning Cup run and was starting to overshadow Lecavalier. There were a few other big-name UFA signings, but those 3 were the most notable to change teams via the FA market.

The next summer? Drury signed for 5/35.25 with the Rangers, Briere signed for 8/52 with the Flyers ... but both of those guys were UFA. Based on prior years, those contracts were fully expected; after all UFA's were supposed to get the big dollars. You want to know where salary inflation for the younger guys really kicked off? That would have been right around July 4, 2007 when Kevin Lowe got Thomas Vanek to sign an offer sheet. Vanek was a 23-year old guy who had 163 games under his belt, was 68-64-132 and coming off a 43-goal season, and Lowe signed him to a 7-year, $50 million offer sheet - and that offer sheet was going to get lobbed whether Buffalo had brought back Drury and/or Briere or not (and if anything, had either of those guys been back the Sabres would have struggled to match).

Huge signing bonuses? That also started right there, because Lowe offered Vanek $8 million in signing bonuses over the first 2 years.

Campbell? He didn't get his huge contract until the summer of 2008, after the Sabres had dealt him to the Sharks for another (failed) Cup run.

The Sabres were responsible for the explosion in player salaries? Hardly. There were several other teams much more responsible for it, all the Sabres did was follow everyone else's lead - and even that took Pegula taking over to do.
- Irish Blues

Well, they certainly did helped out the last few years with Leno and Ehrhoff.

Let's go back in history and get the facts right.

Remember the summer of 2006? That was the one before Drury and Briere hit the FA market; that was the one where Boston signed Zdeno Chara for 5 years, $35 million. The year prior? Anaheim signed Scott Niedermayer for 4 years, $27 million (New Jersey was willing to give him the then-max of $7.8 million per) and Chicago signed Nikolai Khabibulin for 4 years, $27 million. Tampa had signed Brad Richards to a then-max contract of 5 years, $39 million during the '05-06 season. The first 3 of those guys were UFA, Richards was coming off a Conn Smythe-winning Cup run and was starting to overshadow Lecavalier. There were a few other big-name UFA signings, but those 3 were the most notable to change teams via the FA market.

The next summer? Drury signed for 5/35.25 with the Rangers, Briere signed for 8/52 with the Flyers ... but both of those guys were UFA. Based on prior years, those contracts were fully expected; after all UFA's were supposed to get the big dollars. You want to know where salary inflation for the younger guys really kicked off? That would have been right around July 4, 2007 when Kevin Lowe got Thomas Vanek to sign an offer sheet. Vanek was a 23-year old guy who had 163 games under his belt, was 68-64-132 and coming off a 43-goal season, and Lowe signed him to a 7-year, $50 million offer sheet - and that offer sheet was going to get lobbed whether Buffalo had brought back Drury and/or Briere or not (and if anything, had either of those guys been back the Sabres would have struggled to match).

Huge signing bonuses? That also started right there, because Lowe offered Vanek $8 million in signing bonuses over the first 2 years.

Campbell? He didn't get his huge contract until the summer of 2008, after the Sabres had dealt him to the Sharks for another (failed) Cup run.

The Sabres were responsible for the explosion in player salaries? Hardly. There were several other teams much more responsible for it, all the Sabres did was follow everyone else's lead - and even that took Pegula taking over to do.
- Irish Blues

To be fair, I'm not really sure you can compare the deals given to Chara and Niedermayer with the deals given to other crappy players. I wouldn't call $7M for Chara an overpayment now, let alone 5 years ago.