well good for them they should be worth what the market pays for them .... People in carolina do not pay the same ticket prices that i do.....sorry but thats the truth....bottom line is fan support for a team drives revenue and allows them to pay more for players. Why punish a teams fan base. Unless ticket prices across the league are all the same, i could care less if those teams cant keep their stars.
- Philly1980

Then you're of the mnd that there is no point in having a cap!

If there's a hard cap in place, 'the market' is almost the same for every team. There is still some variance, though as the smaller market teams have self-imposed' caps.

Under a situation where you can trade cap space, the 'market' is what the richest teams say the market is based on the amount of cap space they've accrued in trades. Huge difference.

Your right (frank) the cap. Fans should determine how competive their teams should be.

All sounds nice and peachy, until you read Fehr's letter to the players. He seems content on continuing to not negotiate, and seems to think this is not a serious offer.
- BleedBlueSTL

They're meeting on Thursday.

You know that 'letter' was published for a reason, don't you? You know they sent that out as much for the owners to read as for the players? It wouldn't surprise me if they sent out a 2nd letter for only the players eyes.

It's 'negotiation 101'.

The players are in a tough spot now. If they decline this offer and don't negotiate, they'll lose the PR battle. That's the last thing they want. Last negotiations, the players were seen as the bad guys for not wanting a cap (that most fans knew was necessary). Up until yesterday, the players were generally seen as the 'good guys', especially after the 43% offer.

After yesterday, things have changed. Fans will be pissed if players don't start working off of this offer and negotiating. If the players flat-out turn this down and don't offer a counter-proposal, there'll be calls for replacement players from the fans.

NHLPA not impressed with latest offer....

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407542

690 jobs a year for NHLPA members.
- Atomic Wedgie

Absolute Win

Your right (frank) the cap. Fans should determine how competive their teams should be.
- Philly1980

Then you want a league like MLB where its the same damn teams competing every year for the prize.

What would even be the point of being a fan in the smaller markets?

You think their fan support sucks now, imagine what it would be like if the fans knew they will never have a chance at winning anything?

Also think of the new 'conferences'.

One was going to be NYR, NYI, Pitts, Philly, NJ, Washington and Carolina.

Why even bother being a fan of Carolina?

Perfect example is the Blue Jays. Back in the 90's when they were competitive, they had some of the highest attendance in the league. They set a record in the season when the sky dome opened.

Now look at their fan support. They struggle to get 15K, unless the Yanks or Sox are in town.

Why? Cause there's no point in being a Jays fan. Unless the stars align like they did this year for the Orioles or the Rays a couple yrs ago (who are now losing their stars), you have no chance of winning it all. What's the point?

No, there has to be SOME competitive balance, or else you turn the league into a league where the 'haves' and 'have-nots' are miles away from each other.

They're meeting on Thursday.

You know that 'letter' was published for a reason, don't you? You know they sent that out as much for the owners to read as for the players? It wouldn't surprise me if they sent out a 2nd letter for only the players eyes.

It's 'negotiation 101'.

The players are in a tough spot now. If they decline this offer and don't negotiate, they'll lose the PR battle. That's the last thing they want. Last negotiations, the players were seen as the bad guys for not wanting a cap (that most fans knew was necessary). Up until yesterday, the players were generally seen as the 'good guys', especially after the 43% offer.

After yesterday, things have changed. Fans will be pissed if players don't start working off of this offer and negotiating. If the players flat-out turn this down and don't offer a counter-proposal, there'll be calls for replacement players from the fans.
- Charliebox

Yes.. because the NHLPA has shown that with past similar statements that they've been willing to negotiate.. right...

fehr better not f this up
i expect some more negotiating trying to get a little more out of bettman but he better not push to hard

Then you want a league like MLB where its the same damn teams competing every year for the prize.

What would even be the point of being a fan in the smaller markets?

You think their fan support sucks now, imagine what it would be like if the fans knew they will never have a chance at winning anything?

Also think of the new 'conferences'.

One was going to be NYR, NYI, Pitts, Philly, NJ, Washington and Carolina.

Why even bother being a fan of Carolina?

Perfect example is the Blue Jays. Back in the 90's when they were competitive, they had some of the highest attendance in the league. They set a record in the season when the sky dome opened.

Now look at their fan support. They struggle to get 15K, unless the Yanks or Sox are in town.

Why? Cause there's no point in being a Jays fan. Unless the stars align like they did this year for the Orioles or the Rays a couple yrs ago (who are now losing their stars), you have no chance of winning it all. What's the point?

No, there has to be SOME competitive balance, or else you turn the league into a league where the 'haves' and 'have-nots' are miles away from each other.
- Charliebox

Yay.. someone else gets it. I've become more and more of an NHL fan as parity has come to this league.. Even though it meant a team like chicago rising from the dump, and most especially because it has seen Detroit dethroned. The NHL is the ONLY league with this level of parity, and that is what makes it the greatest league in the world.

Brilliant move by Gary. All the public will notice is 50-50 and 82 games. Fehr has to say that this is less poopty than the first proposal and that they will negotiate off this offer and try to get improvements in as many of the elements as possible.

I do find the Gary just wants to save hockey sentiment interesting. It does re-confirm though that he is very good at what he does.

Yes.. because the NHLPA has shown that with past similar statements that they've been willing to negotiate.. right...
- BleedBlueSTL

Don't worry!

Honestly, I think the players know that if they don't work off of this, they'll probably lose the year. I don't see the NHL going any lower than 52%, and I'm sure the players know that.

Everything else (contract length, ELC, etc) can be negotiated.

Notice how Bettman didn't say, this was a 'take it or leave it' offer like the last one the NHL offered? He knows there's room for negotiation.

Right now, the PA is trying to find weakness in the owners. They are trying to pit the owners against each other. IMO, will only last a week and they will start on time.

Who knows, maybe you're right and the PA is going to shoot themselves in the foot. All I know, and I would think, THEY would know, is that it will end really, really badly for them if they don't work off of this offer (or give a counter-proposal that isn't far off).

Then you want a league like MLB where its the same damn teams competing every year for the prize.

What would even be the point of being a fan in the smaller markets?

You think their fan support sucks now, imagine what it would be like if the fans knew they will never have a chance at winning anything?

Also think of the new 'conferences'.

One was going to be NYR, NYI, Pitts, Philly, NJ, Washington and Carolina.

Why even bother being a fan of Carolina?

Perfect example is the Blue Jays. Back in the 90's when they were competitive, they had some of the highest attendance in the league. They set a record in the season when the sky dome opened.

Now look at their fan support. They struggle to get 15K, unless the Yanks or Sox are in town.

Why? Cause there's no point in being a Jays fan. Unless the stars align like they did this year for the Orioles or the Rays a couple yrs ago (who are now losing their stars), you have no chance of winning it all. What's the point?

No, there has to be SOME competitive balance, or else you turn the league into a league where the 'haves' and 'have-nots' are miles away from each other.
- Charliebox

The problem in the NHL is that even if teams are super competitive they still hemorrage money.... Perfect examples: Phoenix, Nashville How have teams like toronto managed to stay afloat the last ten years? It should really be survival of the fittest some markets dont want hockey plain and simple. Move them or get rid of them. They shouldnt drag other teams down with them.


Alot of uncompetitive teams doing ok in the NHL lol

They're meeting on Thursday.

You know that 'letter' was published for a reason, don't you? You know they sent that out as much for the owners to read as for the players? It wouldn't surprise me if they sent out a 2nd letter for only the players eyes.

It's 'negotiation 101'.

The players are in a tough spot now. If they decline this offer and don't negotiate, they'll lose the PR battle. That's the last thing they want. Last negotiations, the players were seen as the bad guys for not wanting a cap (that most fans knew was necessary). Up until yesterday, the players were generally seen as the 'good guys', especially after the 43% offer.

After yesterday, things have changed. Fans will be pissed if players don't start working off of this offer and negotiating. If the players flat-out turn this down and don't offer a counter-proposal, there'll be calls for replacement players from the fans.
- Charliebox

Nicely summarized and spot on. The players have been playing a PR war since the beginning and were clearly winning that battle. With this proposal the onus is on the players to not lose that position. I never expected this offer to be accepted as it stood (it's a negotiation) but there is no way that there is not a reasonable agreement based off of today's offer. Again, not as it stands now but with some negotiating and give and take on a few issues there's a deal if the players want a deal.

say hello to receiving a mediocre product on the ice and paying higher ticket prices than anyone else. This CBA will destroy the top 8 and in a sense is not fair. If they want all teams to be on equal footing than they should make ticket prices across the league the same. I pay more money to go see a better product from my club out there.....Not to feed Bettmans bastards. League parity can kiss my ass. . If it weren for the top 8 the bottom 8 would cease to exist.
- Philly1980

Do you buy Phillies, Eagles, or 76ers tickets? Just curious b/c you do realize that all of those sports have revenue sharing also. So while I understand your frustration seeing portions of your high ticket prices be siphoned off to other teams in small markets, bottom line is revenue sharing is a staple of modern sports and will be for the forseeable future.

Do you buy Phillies, Eagles, or 76ers tickets? Just curious b/c you do realize that all of those sports have revenue sharing also. So while I understand your frustration seeing portions of your high ticket prices be siphoned off to other teams in small markets, bottom line is revenue sharing is a staple of modern sports and will be for the forseeable future.
- uf1910

Baseball has a soft cap....see the yankees. Basketball and football are a joke to me so i could care less about them. Hockey is god. I understand the pros of revenue sharing, but their are cons against it as well

Is this just me or does anybody else has the feeling that throughout this whole mess Fehr has been the one unwilling to start a real negociations? I mean, I am not sure what his agenda is but as bad as Battman is he has been the one making any steps at all. It's too early to panic but if Fehr doesn't start real negociation off of the 50/50 deal we can pretty much kiss the season goodbye.

The problem in the NHL is that even if teams are super competitive they still hemorrage money.... Perfect examples: Phoenix, Nashville How have teams like toronto managed to stay afloat the last ten years? It should really be survival of the fittest some markets dont want hockey plain and simple. Move them or get rid of them. They shouldnt drag other teams down with them.
- Philly1980

Again, do you think Toronto is a good baseball market? They broke MLB records in the 90's for god sakes. Only the Yanks in 08 and the rockies in 93 have broken it.

Sure, they were winning at the time, but isn't that the point?

You don't truly know how good a market is for a certain sport until the team starts winning (or at the very least, competing).

I agree some teams like Phoenix and Florida shouldn't exist, but with that said, look at Columbus. They had awesome fans for the first 6-7 yrs. What happened? Fans started realizing that their management sucked and they have no chance of competing. Attendance dwindled.

Obviously the Columbus example was based on poopty management, but the same would hold true if they had no money or couldn't spend to get anyone.

No one, even in a great market (outside major Canadian cities and NY) is going to support a team that never wins. That's just the way it is.

Even Boston as 'traditional' of a hockey market as you can get, when they were bad in the early 2000's, were playing to a half full building.

Again, do you think Toronto is a good baseball market? They broke MLB records in the 90's for god sakes. Only the Yanks in 08 and the rockies in 93 have broken it.

Sure, they were winning at the time, but isn't that the point?

You don't truly know how good a market is for a certain sport until the team starts winning (or at the very least, competing).

I agree some teams like Phoenix and Florida shouldn't exist, but with that said, look at Columbus. They had awesome fans for the first 6-7 yrs. What happened? Fans started realizing that their management sucked and they have no chance of competing. Attendance dwindled.

Obviously the Columbus example was based on poopty management, but the same would hold true if they had no money or couldn't spend to get anyone.

No one, even in a great market (outside major Canadian cities and NY) is going to support a team that never wins. That's just the way it is.

Even Boston as 'traditional' of a hockey market as you can get, when they were bad in the early 2000's, were playing to a half full building.
- Charliebox

Ok then why the (frank) should i pay foor poorly managed teams....why should you? Boston doesnt hemmorage millions of dollars when they suck. These other teams though have never ever and will never turn a profit.

Baseball has a soft cap....see the yankees. Basketball and football are a joke to me so i could care less about them.
- Philly1980

And you think that "soft cap" luxury tax is anything other than a form of revenue sharing? It siphons money from the big spenders (once they hit a certain payroll threshold) and gives it to the small markets that can't afford to compete in the same $ levels.

Ok then why the (frank) should i pay foor poorly managed teams....why should you? Boston doesnt hemmorage millions of dollars when they suck. These other teams though have never ever and will never turn a profit.
- Philly1980

You aren't paying for poorly managed teams!!

I have this argument with Habs and Leaf fans all the time.

Ticket prices in Philly are the way they are becuase of supply and demand. You pay what you do cause the owners know that's what they can get for a ticket.

The measley amount of reveue sharing that happens in the NHL does not drive ticket prices!

Do you really think the ticket price in Philly would go down if there was no revenue sharing? God no! It would just mean that the owner would get more in profit. Since when does any fan give a crap about how much the owner is profitting? Are you related to him? Friends with him? Does he take you out for dinner?

As long as your team is stable and healthy, that's all you should care about.

fehr better not f this up
i expect some more negotiating trying to get a little more out of bettman but he better not push to hard
- thegodfather

it's just a matter of waiting at this point because this is already set in stone. the players know in which direction they're taking this (as do the owners) and we'll all find out over the next 2 days if we're being used as pawns at the onset of a very, very, very long lockout or if we're playing hockey in the next month.

Ok then why the (frank) should i pay foor poorly managed teams....why should you? Boston doesnt hemmorage millions of dollars when they suck. These other teams though have never ever and will never turn a profit.
- Philly1980

This thinking is part of what is ruining this league. especially when it comes to the CBA interest of few in front of all. Oh and why is Philly complaining they intentionally put all of this on the table with contract offers this summer trying to steal players before the new CBA by bullying contracts. Karma is a B Flyers your'e cursed for being a bad neighbor. Seeing as of how the Flyers make plenty off the rest of the league through their owner Comcasts TV contracts. You should be more concerned about the well fare of the league.

The NFL has revenue sharing and is the strongest and most popular pro sports league. I can't see the down side in modeling the revenue structuring this way. All this self righteous our team earns more so sharing shouldn't happen junk is bull. This league succeeds and fails together. Who would the Flyer's be without the NHL and other clubs? The answer is nothing. They wouldn't excist without the others so open you're eyes they all depend on each other.

Another thing I would like answered is this. Please explain to me how the NHL would get new investors or city's to open up to the league if every time a relocation or new investment went wrong they cut and run. It wouldn't look good. With that said Pheonix is the lone exception this was and is a bad investment. They should still be the Jets and by now at least relocated to Quebec.

P.S. Thanks for the cup Flyers fans Richards and Carter were great, happy you ran them out of town.

Do you buy Phillies, Eagles, or 76ers tickets? Just curious b/c you do realize that all of those sports have revenue sharing also. So while I understand your frustration seeing portions of your high ticket prices be siphoned off to other teams in small markets, bottom line is revenue sharing is a staple of modern sports and will be for the forseeable future.
- uf1910

There seems to be this misconception out there that the NHL doesn't already have revenue sharing.

They do.

In more ways than you can imagine.

Besides directly contributing straight cash, the Leafs also lose money when more of their games are broadcast nationally than other teams (meaning less games to sell to local broadcasters).

They lose money when their jerseys outsell other clubs, yet they only get 1/30th of the total licensing fees for jerseys and other merchandise.

... .. .......
- aightwebang17

.......... .... ............ ....... ......

Is this just me or does anybody else has the feeling that throughout this whole mess Fehr has been the one unwilling to start a real negociations? I mean, I am not sure what his agenda is but as bad as Battman is he has been the one making any steps at all. It's too early to panic but if Fehr doesn't start real negociation off of the 50/50 deal we can pretty much kiss the season goodbye.
- Aliaksandrhn

I guess we will see.....