the bolded is exactly why i take issue with the players stance

they want all the honey but none of the bee stings that come along with getting it.

the players want all the advantage of ownership with none of the risk. if the players were willing to assume risk then i'd side with them, but they arent.

basically they want a huge chunk of the asset ledger and want the owners to assume the full consequence of the debit ledger. and thats just flat out absurd imo.
- Dozzer

There is merit to the arguments both sides are making. That’s what negotiations are about, finding a fair middle ground. They haven’t done so yet. It sucks that we’re in the middle, but it happens. What was going on 10 years ago wasn’t sustainable. They made steps in the last round of CBA negotiations, and came to an agreement, that wasn’t really all the way there. It was enough progress, and fair at the time. Now, things have changed, it’s time to come to a new agreement. Would we like it to be now? Or even yesterday? Of course we would. So would the players, and SO WOULD THE OWNERS (some people seem to think otherwise).

As Wedgie says, it isn’t anybody’s “fault”. (a good way of phrasing it, btw). It’s a fact of life. They have a negotiation to go through to come to fair working agreement. These things take time sometimes. They’re both just fighting for the best agreement for their own groups. And that’s no different than any other strike/lockout, and more importantly, no different than you or I would do, if we were either a player or an owner.

The Leafs have been using replacement players for years!

As much as I hate the idea of replacements, it would certainly be interesting if all those displaced players from the SEL, KHL and other European leagues came over to North America to play in the NHL.

I'll add one caveat to what Wedgie/PRock are saying -- they pretty much have it right.

These negotiations do take time, especially when you're trying to carve up $3.3B in league revenues. Hockey fans that were expecting quick resolution were being optimistic for the sake of being optimistic. It's easy to be frustrated with the length when you're the end-consumer and don't have a dog in the fight, and it's not wrong to be irritated w/ it all. The anger, though, has been regularly misdirected.

I think the one legitimate gripe hockey fans do have is the way negotiations have been carried out. Again, anything you can name -- be it the timetable, start point, issues discussed, etc. -- all go back to the two parties vying for some leverage in the process, but this past weekend was pretty much insane. Going away from core economics to drug-testing policies and periphery weren't anything more than a sideshow. A glorified one, at that.

I think most fans would just prefer the raw, unfiltered truth. Stay on the core economics and negotiate in earnest, even if it means awful news compiled on awful news monthly, weekly, daily..

Every element of negotiations so far can be linked back to the larger-picture power struggle, but the dog and pony show theatrics are growing pretty tiresome.

There is merit to the arguments both sides are making. That’s what negotiations are about, finding a fair middle ground. They haven’t done so yet. It sucks that we’re in the middle, but it happens. What was going on 10 years ago wasn’t sustainable. They made steps in the last round of CBA negotiations, and came to an agreement, that wasn’t really all the way there. It was enough progress, and fair at the time. Now, things have changed, it’s time to come to a new agreement. Would we like it to be now? Or even yesterday? Of course we would. So would the players, and SO WOULD THE OWNERS (some people seem to think otherwise).

As Wedgie says, it isn’t anybody’s “fault”. (a good way of phrasing it, btw). It’s a fact of life. They have a negotiation to go through to come to fair working agreement. These things take time sometimes. They’re both just fighting for the best agreement for their own groups. And that’s no different than any other strike/lockout, and more importantly, no different than you or I would do, if we were either a player or an owner.
- prock

oh dont get me wrong, i understand the players side of the negotiation. of course the union is going to try to get the absolute best deal for their members.. thats their job.

but its also the job of a union to negotiate reasonably and to inform their members when they are asking too much (not openly of course, but behind closed doors).

for example, the company i work for had a new union agreement come up this past winter. i am not in the union myself but there are friends of mine who are. most guys came in being reasonable but others were saying to the union "we want this this this this that and this and that and some more of this". the union told the workers that they needed to get realistic in a hurry and that their demands were flat out unreasonable. ultimately, the members came to understand that their self perceived worth was unrealistic and a strike was avoided.

it is absolutely the unions job to protect the interests of its members, but that also includes ensuring there are no lengthy work stoppages, since, a work stoppage is not in the best interest of the union member.

The Leafs have been using replacement players for years!
- BraxtanFILM

Original.

As much as I hate the idea of replacements, it would certainly be interesting if all those displaced players from the SEL, KHL and other European leagues came over to North America to play in the NHL.
- As_I_See_It

Ew, i think replacement players would be sweet, as long as they were complete goons and had line brawls every game.

Original.
- As_I_See_It

It was a good joke.

It was a good joke.
- The_Hinter

Simple things right?

I'll add one caveat to what Wedgie/PRock are saying -- they pretty much have it right.

These negotiations do take time, especially when you're trying to carve up $3.3B in league revenues. Hockey fans that were expecting quick resolution were being optimistic for the sake of being optimistic. It's easy to be frustrated with the length when you're the end-consumer and don't have a dog in the fight, and it's not wrong to be irritated w/ it all. The anger, though, has been regularly misdirected.

I think the one legitimate gripe hockey fans do have is the way negotiations have been carried out. Again, anything you can name -- be it the timetable, start point, issues discussed, etc. -- all go back to the two parties vying for some leverage in the process, but this past weekend was pretty much insane. Going away from core economics to drug-testing policies and periphery weren't anything more than a sideshow. A glorified one, at that.

I think most fans would just prefer the raw, unfiltered truth. Stay on the core economics and negotiate in earnest, even if it means awful news compiled on awful news monthly, weekly, daily..

Every element of negotiations so far can be linked back to the larger-picture power struggle, but the dog and pony show theatrics are growing pretty tiresome.
- Travis Yost

Yeah, there are a lot of PR ploys, side shows, and theatrics going on. You say most would prefer the raw truth, but look through these posts, there are a lot of people that don't even realize that these things are PR ploys, side shows, and theatrics.

It was a good joke.
- The_Hinter

the first time it was funny..

then next thousand times was amusing...

the last 10 thousand times it has been used its just simply sad.

Its already the most watered down league in sports, why not look even worse to your peers as well as the owners you represent not to mention even trying this would give the players a MAJOR advantage at the bargaining table. If this does take place or has been even brought up Bettman would get the axe. Nice try Ek way to get people talking about something that I guarantee would never take place.

Why is either one "at fault?"

Fans need to stop thinking this is some sort of public resource that we have a right to watch.

It's a business.

A business that right now is locked in a labour dispute.

It's none of our business. Let them work it out.

We are not at the table.

If you don't like it, stop watching. But spare me the idea that the fans have a say in the actual negotiations.
- Atomic Wedgie

if both sides are not willing to budge, then yes, it is everybody's fault. you said it yourself: labor dispute. if both sides can't come to an agreement to run a successful business, then it's a failure.

well, yeah.



Yup. Who knows what the fair amount is. But it's pretty clear it's lower than the current %, IMO. How far, I don't know. The thing is, a very small change in % of revenue can make a very big difference in profit, depending on some things.

It might be difficult to put in a system that depends on profit though. What if there is a net loss?



Yep, that's exactly correct. It's not done on a team by team basis though, it's done on the league as a whole. And what I was talking about earlier, a 3% drop to 54% doubles the team's profit.
- prock

I'm not on either side really - it's a fight for money that the owners want and the players don't want to give up. No real good guys and bad guys as far as I'm concerned.

But -- a bit of context required.

57% of HRR is a number that the owners put in place last time. There is nothing inherently wrong or right with that number.

The real problem is, as you say, the owners system of a cap and share of revenues creates a league wide economic system. The Leafs and Coyotes are operating under the same salary structure when they aren't in the same reenue universe.

Saying that Bettman is putting the league's proposed numbers forward as a solution to the problems facing the Coyotes is bogus. Please tell me what the correct player share of revenues needs to be for the Coyotes to survive. There isn't one and it certainly can't be just a matter of a floor at $16M below the cap.

Ew, i think replacement players would be sweet, as long as they were complete goons and had line brawls every game.
- Leafland

European goons LOL

I see, so, if the players were already striking, the owner's could lock them out. That makes total sense.



I wouldn't be calling people stupid for airing their opinions, while you do the same on something you clearly don't have the first clue about.
- prock

lol...
hit the nail on the head here!

the first time it was funny..

then next thousand times was amusing...

the last 10 thousand times it has been used its just simply sad.
- Dozzer

If Hamilton gets an NHL team, will Toronto get one too?

Get it? Did you get it?

Because Toronto doesn't have an NHL team right now!

Ha ha ha ha hah ah ah ha.



Oh, Gawd, too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its already the most watered down league in sports, why not look even worse to your peers as well as the owners you represent not to mention even trying this would give the players a MAJOR advantage at the bargaining table. If this does take place or has been even brought up Bettman would get the axe. Nice try Ek way to get people talking about something that I guarantee would never take place.
- thundachunk

Another great NHL myth.

There has never been a greater pool of talent, coming from as many countries around the world.

The rise of hockey in the USA alone has ensured that there is enough talent.

Training has never been better.

Coaching has never been better.

If Hamilton gets an NHL team, will Toronto get one too?

Get it? Did you get it?

Because Toronto doesn't have an NHL team right now!

Ha ha ha ha hah ah ah ha.



Oh, Gawd, too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Atomic Wedgie

how do you know when its spring?

cause the leafs are out

pa rum pum!

dont lie, i know you're in stitches over that one.

I'm not on either side really - it's a fight for money that the owners want and the players don't want to give up. No real good guys and bad guys as far as I'm concerned.

But -- a bit of context required.

57% of HRR is a number that the owners put in place last time. There is nothing inherently wrong or right with that number.

The real problem is, as you say, the owners system of a cap and share of revenues creates a league wide economic system. The Leafs and Coyotes are operating under the same salary structure when they aren't in the same reenue universe.

Saying that Bettman is putting the league's proposed numbers forward as a solution to the problems facing the Coyotes is bogus. Please tell me what the correct player share of revenues needs to be for the Coyotes to survive. There isn't one and it certainly can't be just a matter of a floor at $16M below the cap.
- Canada Cup

Many try to blame the owner's with "but that was their number, the 57%".

If they'd tried fro 51%, the lockout could have been two years. At the time, they got the best deal they could, and moved on.

And that ignores that there are deals that can work for both sides at one time, and as things progress, they no longer work. We were talking about a $1.8B in revenue league at the time. Now we're talking about $3.5B or something? Revenue has doubled. Things have changed.

There is nothing wrong with expecting the CBA to change along with the times, and the progression of the league (hopefully towards an agreement that can be sustained more long-term).

NHL players are already crossing the picket lines to play in Europe.
- 89mogo

umm... the players aren't striking. This is an owner imposed lockout.

Can somebody explain to me why those greedy pigs keep discussing secondary issues that they know will NOT resolve the lockout and avoid the core economic problems?

10th and 11th in the East this year?
- Kinger34

that depends...who's 10, who's 11?

If Hamilton gets an NHL team, will Toronto get one too?

Get it? Did you get it?

Because Toronto doesn't have an NHL team right now!

Ha ha ha ha hah ah ah ha.



Oh, Gawd, too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Atomic Wedgie

WAIT! WAIT! WAIT!... I got a good one!!!

Leafs fan - "Knock knock!"

Troll - "Who's there?

Leafs fan: "A Leafs fan!"

Troll - "A Leafs fan who?"

Leafs fan - "Go (frank) yourself!"

GET IT?

Another great NHL myth.

There has never been a greater pool of talent, coming from as many countries around the world.

The rise of hockey in the USA alone has ensured that there is enough talent.

Training has never been better.

Coaching has never been better.
- Atomic Wedgie

Agreed. People talk about the watering down of talent in the 90s, but they seem to forget that along with the league expaning from 21 to 30 teams, you had a massive new influx of players like Makarov, Mogilny, Fedorov, even guys like Jagr and Selanne would likely have never played in the NHL in the 80s.