u know thats from hockeyinsider right?

i call bullpoop
- big_dion

I agree it is most likely horsecrap.......but I dont think Franson was happy at all last year with the Leafs, I would not be surprised If he asks for a trade. Hes a young pup who needs to prove himself, and the Leafs didn't do a good job of letting that happen last year. He sat the first dozen games or so if I remember correctly.

Package him up with MacArthor or a Percy, and upgrade a spot either on D or up front

1 season lost is a drop in the bucket for the owners.

Even a conservative estimate is that the players lose 10% of their hockey career on average, if they are locked out a year. They will never recover that.

The owners have all the power here. This is going to be a slaughter, just like last time. slaughter in terms of the players getting a cap rammed down their throats... not that that worked out badly for them then, but it is about to now
- NightTrain_AlMo

Hilarious.

The NHLPA aren't in a position of weakness. They aren't about to give a lot away.
- Two_For_Truth

It's actually funnier when I hear that from Al Strachan, but hell, it's still funny to hear it from you.

Is he good in the room?
Mentor for young players?
- NightTrain_AlMo

The thing I like about Lupul is he just takes it one shift at a time, and focuses on doing the little things right.

The NHLPA aren't in a position of weakness. They aren't about to give a lot away.
- Two_For_Truth

Just my opinion but we'll find out sometime between the US thanksgiving and the new year who wears the pants in this financial battle.

I think the variables favour the owners.

Just my opinion but we'll find out sometime between the US thanksgiving and the new year who wears the pants in this financial battle.

I think the variables favour the owners.
- The Law

The NHL got their way last time and here they are, seven years later, saying the system is broken. The exact same system they created and said would work. The NHLPA aren't going to get the moon but they are sitting in a better position.

The NHL got their way last time and here they are, seven years later, saying the system is broken. The exact same system they created and said would work. The NHLPA aren't going to get the moon but they are sitting in a better position than the owners are.
- Two_For_Truth

Can you do me a favour?

Can you list all of the times where professional players have been locked out, and the players have "won?"

Here, I'll get you started:

The List







Oh, looks like I completed it for you.

Can you do me a favour?

Can you list all of the times where professional players have been locked out, and the players have "won?"

Here, I'll get you started:

The List

Oh, looks like I completed it for you.
- Atomic Wedgie

Did the salary cap not rise up to 70 million dollars after it started at 39?

Did players start getting 100 million dollar deals or did that come from the sport fiction section?

The owners "won" the short term battle but the players won the war from this last CBA. It exploded in the owners face and they're not in a good position right now.

Can you do me a favour?

Can you list all of the times where professional players have been locked out, and the players have "won?"

Here, I'll get you started:

The List







Oh, looks like I completed it for you.
- Atomic Wedgie

Did the salary cap not rise up to 70 million dollars after it started at 39?

Did players start getting 100 million dollar deals or did that come from the sport fiction section?

The owners "won" the short term battle but the players won the war from this last CBA. It exploded in the owners face and they're not in a good position right now.
- Two_For_Truth

But the owners got exactly what they wanted. Turns out what they wanted was stupid, but they still got everything they wanted.

Which is exactly what will happen this time.

Your post stated that the players are in a better position than the owners this time. They aren't. They are still at the mercy of the owners' whims.

But the owners got exactly what they wanted. Turns out what they wanted was stupid, but they still got everything they wanted.

Which is exactly what will happen this time.

Your post stated that the players are in a better position than the owners this time. They aren't. They are still at the mercy of the owners' whims.
- Atomic Wedgie

This.

The only way this could change is for another group of owners to propose an alternative league for the players to play in.

And no, the KHL is not it.

But the owners got exactly what they wanted. Turns out what they wanted was stupid, but they still got everything they wanted.

Which is exactly what will happen this time.

Your post stated that the players are in a better position than the owners this time. They aren't. They are still at the mercy of the owners' whims.
- Atomic Wedgie

So how exactly are the players in a position of weakness if what the owners wanted last time was stupid and this time around they want that exact same stupidity all over again? Oh wait, maybe because they aren't in a position of weakness.

Just because the owners "got what they wanted" doesn't mean they "won". If you look at it from the school yard point of view, maybe they won the pissing contest but the owners would have truly won if what they wanted actually worked out as they intended. Unfortunately for them, it didn't. The cap is at 70 million dollars, players are getting 12 year, 100 million dollar deals, they have several teams in financial disarray and are operating in a generally unsustainable system. It back fired. This time around, with hard proof that the current system doesn't work, the players are not in a position of weakness.

The players also seem to generally have the support of the fans. They aren't the ones pushing for a lockout and have done everything to save face through the entire process. The players aren't going to get everything they asked for in their proposal but they aren't going to completely cave in either.

So how exactly are the players in a position of weakness if what the owners wanted last time was stupid and this time around they want that exact same stupidity all over again? Oh wait, maybe because they aren't in a position of weakness.

Just because the owners "got what they wanted" doesn't mean they "won". If you look at it from the school yard point of view, maybe they won the pissing contest but the owners would have truly won if what they wanted actually worked out as they intended. Unfortunately for them, it didn't. The cap is at 70 million dollars, players are getting 12 year, 100 million dollar deals, they have several teams in financial disarray and are operating in a generally unsustainable system. It back fired. This time around, with hard proof that the current system doesn't work, the players are not in a position of weakness.

The players have the support of the fans this time around. They aren't the ones pushing for a lockout and have done everything to save face through the entire process. The players aren't going to get everything they asked for in their proposal but they aren't going to completely cave in either.
- Two_For_Truth

In a negociation. that's exactly what winning means.

In a negociation. that's exactly what winning means.
- Scabeh

In a negociation. that's exactly what winning means.
- Scabeh

What the NHL truly wanted, they did not get. What they wanted was an economically sustainable system. What they got was a system they thought would work but after seven years, it benefited the players more than the owners.

In a negociation. that's exactly what winning means.
- Scabeh

you guys are arguing semantics

they won at the bargaining table but ultimately lost when looking at the contract and its term as a whole.

are you talking about the CBA deliberation or the results of the CBA?

because depending on that the answer could be very very different

you guys are arguing semantics

they won at the bargaining table but ultimately lost when looking at the contract and its term as a whole.

are you talking about the CBA deliberation or the results of the CBA?

because depending on that the answer could be very very different
- Dozzer

I think you're right, everyone agrees except for the whole "players are not in a bad position" part.

Last time, the NHL got exactly what they wanted, it sucked.

So how exactly are the players in a position of weakness if what the owners wanted last time was stupid and this time around they want that exact same stupidity all over again? Oh wait, maybe because they aren't in a position of weakness.

- Two_For_Truth

Because the players are going to be forced to make concessions they didn't want to make.

Just like last time.

Just because the owners "got what they wanted" doesn't mean they "won". If you look at it from the school yard point of view, maybe they won the pissing contest but the owners would have truly won if what they wanted actually worked out as they intended. Unfortunately for them, it didn't. The cap is at 70 million dollars, players are getting 12 year, 100 million dollar deals, they have several teams in financial disarray and are operating in a generally unsustainable system. It back fired. This time around, with hard proof that the current system doesn't work, the players are not in a position of weakness.

- Two_For_Truth

You aren't looking at it the right way.

The players were vehemently opposed to a salary cap. It was forced upon them by the owners. The players lost, and accepted the cap.

You are comparing the players' salaries today to what they were at the time of the lockout. That's not what you need to look at.

What you need to look at is what the players' salaries are now, and what they would have been today if there was no salary cap.

And the answer is: a hell of a lot higher. The Leafs, Rangers and Flyers alone would add 100 million to the system.

The players also seem to generally have the support of the fans. They aren't the ones pushing for a lockout and have done everything to save face through the entire process. The players aren't going to get everything they asked for in their proposal but they aren't going to completely cave in either.
- Two_For_Truth

Fan support means absolutely jack. It's completely meaningless.

The players are going to cave. Just like they did last time. Just like the NFL players. Just like the NBA. Just like MLB. Just like NLL.

you guys are arguing semantics

they won at the bargaining table but ultimately lost when looking at the contract and its term as a whole.

are you talking about the CBA deliberation or the results of the CBA?

because depending on that the answer could be very very different
- Dozzer

From a school yard perspective, yeah sure, they "won" but in reality, they didn't get what they really wanted which was a system that actually works.

From a school yard perspective, yeah sure, they "won" but in reality, they didn't get what they really wanted which was a system that actually works.
- Two_For_Truth

They got a system whereby they earn more than before the current CBA.

This.

The only way this could change is for another group of owners to propose an alternative league for the players to play in.

And no, the KHL is not it.
- Scabeh

Oh Lord, not the WHA II again.

I don't need Frank D'Angelo popping up on TSN, offering to place a team in the new Markham Arena...

Because the players are going to be forced to make concessions they didn't want to make.

Just like last time.
- Atomic Wedgie

Ever heard the term, losing the battle but winning the war? That's kind of what happened. Just like last time?

You aren't looking at it the right way.

I'm afraid you're the one who isn't looking at it the right way. You're looking at it from the school yard perspective. Who won the pissing contest. The NHL only got what they wanted in theory. In practice, the players got what they wanted.

The players were vehemently opposed to a salary cap. It was forced upon them by the owners. The players lost, and accepted the cap.

You are comparing the players' salaries today to what they were at the time of the lockout. That's not what you need to look at.

What you need to look at is what the players' salaries are now, and what they would have been today if there was no salary cap.

And the answer is: a hell of a lot higher. The Leafs, Rangers and Flyers alone would add 100 million to the system.

And how has that salary cap system worked out for the owners? Are their teams in financially stable positions? Or are players getting 100 million dollar, 12 year deals with a 70 million dollar cap while teams are losing as much as 20 or 30 million a year?

Fan support means absolutely jack. It's completely meaningless.

The players are going to cave. Just like they did last time. Just like the NFL players. Just like the NBA. Just like MLB. Just like NLL.

Considering the fans are the ones where the money is all coming from, it might mean more than absolutely jack, especially when the lockout ends and the fans are the ones that they have to convince to come back. They came back last time, luckily, but will they come back next time? Or the time after that?

They got a system whereby they earn more than before the current CBA.
- Atomic Wedgie

They got a system that is so bad, they have to lockout the players to change it.

If they got what they really wanted, they would have a system that is economically sustainable and wouldn't need to be revamped to make sure they don't lose all their precious Sunbelt teams.

They got a system that is so bad, they have to lockout the players to change it.

If they got what they really wanted, they would have a system that is economically sustainable and wouldn't need to be revamped to make sure they don't lose all their precious Sunbelt teams.
- Two_For_Truth

The system is wonderful for 10 teams (the top 10) because with cost certainty, profits are through the roof.

The system is good for 10 teams, because cost certainty is allowing them to make a profit while remaining competitive (which was not going to be the case under a cap-less system).

The system doesn't work for the remaining 10 teams, because the league didn't envision such a great growth in HRR.

But since the owners hold all the power, they can force further changes on the players to make it an even more favourable arrangement for the owners.

The players have 0 power. None.

Oh Lord, not the WHA II again.

I don't need Frank D'Angelo popping up on TSN, offering to place a team in the new Markham Arena...
- Atomic Wedgie

It's the only way the players can stick it up to the owners. An alternative.

I hope it doesn't happen but you never know.