Backes started on the 1st line?
- burn

Just saying if you take out the first 2 seasons backes has an avg of 25.75, and kesler has an avg of 27 goals per season.

Is math not a priority in BC?
- burn

We get asians to do it for us. Just Kidding.

We get asians to do it for us. Just Kidding.
- pker2theend

Is math not a priority in BC?
- burn

Vancouver had 111 points last year. Toronto had 80. 111-80=31. Vancouver had 31 more points. I did it! I did math!
Now I'll just sit back and wait for a predictable post about how many more Cups the Leafs have than the Canucks.

Yeah, all this career average crap is useless to the debate. Kesler has over 100 more career games than Backes and they are the same age. Kesler has both the higher single season and totals in goals, assists and points, the greater production over the last handful of seasons and the individual hardware.

It's fine if you think Backes is better, but it's not proven in stats and it's not something most Canuck fans will agree with. Can we move on now?

Yeah, all this career average crap is useless to the debate. Kesler has over 100 more career games than Backes and they are the same age. Kesler has both the higher single season and totals in goals, assists and points, the greater production over the last handful of seasons and the individual hardware.

It's fine if you think Backes is better, but it's not proven in stats and it's not something most Canuck fans will agree with. Can we move on now?
- micah555

Yeah, all this career average crap is useless to the debate. Kesler has over 100 more career games than Backes and they are the same age. Kesler has both the higher single season and totals in goals, assists and points, the greater production over the last handful of seasons and the individual hardware.

It's fine if you think Backes is better, but it's not proven in stats and it's not something most Canuck fans will agree with. Can we move on now?
- micah555

My bet is this goes on for another 10 pages. Amazing how much time people have on a beautiful summer day to make pointless arguments.

My bet is this goes on for another 10 pages. Amazing how much time people have on a beautiful summer day to make pointless arguments.
- Scooby_Doo

Yeah, I'm going to get stuff for a BBQ party. I guess they can beat the dead horse if they like.

Is math not a priority in BC?
- burn

It's about third or 4th... After things such as common sense and having a good understanding of hockey and a team that performs well...something that it seems isn't important in Ontario(except for in Ottawa)

Yeah, I'm going to get stuff for a BBQ party. I guess they can beat the dead horse if they like.
- micah555

I'm going to one in a couple of hours as well. Gotta love summer!

Like what? Not one thing you can refute so you just say I'm an idiot instead...typical Canuck fan.
- Iggysbff

Why the hell do you always troll on these threads? How about some positivity.

Why the hell do you always troll on these threads? How about some positivity.
- rune_74

He said this:

He scores more goals and pts..... so you be the judge.
- burn


Comon...dont be a homer. Dough boy is one dimensional. Kesler is a better all around player than Kessel... Even I can admit that.
- Iggybff

Looks positive to me.

You can be a fan and be realistic. Do I think Kesler is a better player YES. Do I believe Kessel is a better fit for the nucks yes.

Part of the problem with this city and its fan base is Canuck fans in general dont know hockey. They just know the Vancouver Canucks. They dont try and learn about other players and other stats. They just look at their team and nothing else.

I cheer for sports in general and players. Do I cheer for the canucks of course I do. But I can also state that other players that play on other teams are good. Just because they play on Vancouver doesnt make them the gods gift to hockey. If that were the case we would have won the last 2 cups. There is a reason why we lost to Boston and got A$$ kicked by LA. The Sedin injury is not the reason.
- Bluechip23

You're on drugs

With matters to Free agents coming to Vancouver I strongly believe the cost of Living in a city like Vancouver is a huge factor for some of these guys. Take Shane doan for example. He lives in Phoenix and he probably has a 10000 Sq foot house in the nicest area of Phoenix and he paid like 100k for it. When you come to Vancouver you have to pay Canadian taxes ( I think) and then you have to pay 2mill to buy anything decent. Reality is Doan isnt living in Langley he will be in Kits, British properties etc.

I know these guys make a crap load of money but a guy like doan who has a big family I think it makes a difference for him.
- Bluechip23

The Canadian taxes are one thing, although Obama is considering an increased tax on people making big bucks. But you can't complain about property prices, while initially high, they are an investment and whoever buys a 2 million dollar house in Vancouver is going to have a 2.1 million dollar house after they live there for a few years. In Phoenix if you have a 100k property and stay there 3 years, you very likely still have a 100k property or potentially less...

But on top of all that, players want to win. They look at the role they'd play and the potential for success, salary and location are secondary. Otherwise why would anyone ever sign in Detroit. ever?

Dude, this is about consistency, not actual players. Buddy was saying that Backes is more consistent because he has scored more (slightly) goals/game than Kesler. I am suggesting that scoring more does not make one more consistent, i.e. Cheechoo...
- 1970vintage

The fact that you had to point that out is just too funny. My 6 year old nephew understood that it was fictitious .

Once again...go check out Schultz's press conference...He never demanded ice time or PP time. He was never gauranteed ice time or pp time by the Oilers. He expects to come in to camp and have to EARN his ice time just like everyone else. So no that was not the reason he chose Edmonton over Van.
- Iggysbff

I guess he just likes golfing in April.

You can't go to the results that you want and devise a way to prove them. It's not how it works. Scientist and mathematician would be discredited for doing that.



Kesler AVG 19 goals/year Career.

Backes AVG 21 goals/year career.

Kesler has a larger margin of swing(higher and lower) from his AVG than Backes. How's that for proving consistency?
- burn

Kesler Selke trophy and a trip to the SCF Backes meh not yet,

Like what? Not one thing you can refute so you just say I'm an idiot instead...typical Canuck fan.
- Iggysbff

I never said you were an idiot. I said parts of your statement were idiotic—there's a difference.

There isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't LOVE to have Kesler on their team.

You can't go to the results that you want and devise a way to prove them. It's not how it works. Scientist and mathematician would be discredited for doing that.



Kesler AVG 19 goals/year Career.

Backes AVG 21 goals/year career.

Kesler has a larger margin of swing(higher and lower) from his AVG than Backes. How's that for proving consistency?
- burn

1) I haven't done that at all, I created a scenario, where two players have played the same number of games, with virtually the same number of goals, giving almost identical goals/game average. Much like Kesler and Backes I might add.

2) Players do not typically burst onto the scene. Sure, there are examples of players scoring 70+ goals as a rookie, but more often than not a player earns their ice time and advances from 4th/3rd line duty to 2nd/1st line duty, much the way both Kesler and Backes have done in their career.

3) Part of being consistent is also in your ability to improve. As stated in #2 above, both Kesler and Backes have earned their added ice time by being outstanding two way players, and have both improved their offensive statistics along the way. They took very different routs to get to the NHL however. Kesler played only one year of college hockey before turning pro, playing in the final 33 games of the AHL season before splitting time between the NHL and AHL in his second pro year. His third year of pro hockey was 82 games with the Canucks. Backes played three years of college hockey before turning pro, following the same basic path as Kesler after that. When Backes finally played pro hockey he was more than two full years older than when Kesler played his first pro hockey.

4) In his first three seasons as a full time NHL'er Kesler was a shutdown centre, playing on the third line and posted 10/12, 6/10 and 21/16 (g/a). His second year he only played 48 games due to injury, based on an 82 game season that's 10/17. This shows a slow, consistent improvement in his offensive production over his first three years, 22 - 27 - 37 (points). David Backes, on the other hand, in his first three full years went 13/18, 31/23, and 17/31. That's 21 - 54 - and then 48 points. Not terribly inconsistent, but a pretty significant spike in his goal totals. In the next three years, Kesler went 26/33, 25/50 and 41/32. These increased totals are attributed to both continued improvement and increased ice time, but again there is a nice consistent progression to his statistics and it appears that 60-70 points is a realistic and expected level of offensive production from the second line centre. Backes, on the other hand, peaked again at 31/31 before dropping off to 24/30 last season. Again, not terribly inconsistent, but based on these stats it is more reasonable to conclude that Backes' average would be in the 50-60 point range. Kesler did drop off a cliff this year with significant drop in his goal total, but his assists remain close to his career average. This would lead me to believe that his 41 goals were more likely an aberration than the norm, but high 20's is not unrealistic.

5) What all of this says is that Kelser has been more consistent in his progression and his output throughout his career than Backes, even if Backes has been more productive in the games he has played.

You can be a fan and be realistic. Do I think Kesler is a better player YES. Do I believe Kessel is a better fit for the nucks yes.

Part of the problem with this city and its fan base is Canuck fans in general dont know hockey. They just know the Vancouver Canucks. They dont try and learn about other players and other stats. They just look at their team and nothing else.

I cheer for sports in general and players. Do I cheer for the canucks of course I do. But I can also state that other players that play on other teams are good. Just because they play on Vancouver doesnt make them the gods gift to hockey. If that were the case we would have won the last 2 cups. There is a reason why we lost to Boston and got A$$ kicked by LA. The Sedin injury is not the reason.
- Bluechip23

This might be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read from a Canuck fan.

Kessel is a one dimensional player. Kesler is one of the best two-way players in the game, and puts up offensive numbers close to Kessel's. A team needs two-way players to win. Also, with Kessel instead of Kesler, who plays 2ndline center?

Kessel would not fit well with the Sedins—that line would be far too soft. They don't need anyone to play with the Sedins—they have Burrows, who's style of play suits them perfectly.

then post Cheechoo's stats...fictional stats are irrelevant in proving what you see as fact.

check these totals:

41, 31, 16, 38, 11, 23...true blue stats...not very consistent...but he is actually one of the best scorers ever.
- OilHorse

No they are not, fictional stats were a way of making a point regarding consistency. The discussion was not about who was better, it was about who was more consistent. It was simply easier to make the numbers up then copy and paste a bunch of real stats.

That doesn't look much like the scoring line of one of the best scorers ever, I think you are leaving a few years out? But I think you get the point that when your goal totals vary by a wide margin from one year to the next, you may lack some consistency, which is what this was about.

The movie Gang of New York starts at 6. For those of you who haven't seen it in a while take a look very good movie. The accents are a little weak but good story.

The movie Gang of New York starts at 6. For those of you who haven't seen it in a while take a look very good movie. The accents are a little weak but good story.
- VANTEL

Great movie. Daniel Day Lewis is one of the best.

Great movie. Daniel Day Lewis is one of the best.
- Fosco

yep one all time favorite.

Hockeyy Insiderr‏@HockeyyInsiderr

Finally on #CANUCKS and Doan. Great chances of winning and best choice for Shane from a point of view of his family.VAN has a great chance.



I stll believe he will go to PHX . I don't think he wants to play anywhere else. He is enjoying his life in the desert.