I would think that Holmgren has already been flexible in the trade talks before the Offer Sheet. And has already presented his best offer to Poile. - MJL
Sure, he might have presented his "best offer" ... at that time. His "best offer" now might be slightly better, because the deal is so close to being completed.
If Polie comes back and says "look, we just need a bit more to get this done" don't you think Homer would listen?
The idea that Homer would offer less now is ridiculous in my opinion. That negotiating ploy often backfires and could force the Preds to harden their stance and take another look at matching.
Sure, he might have presented his "best offer" ... at that time. His "best offer" now might be slightly better, because the deal is so close to being completed.
If Polie comes back and says "look, we just need a bit more to get this done" don't you think Homer would listen?
The idea that Homer would offer less now is ridiculous in my opinion. That negotiating ploy often backfires and could force the Preds to harden their stance and take another look at matching. - FlyerGuy
I think during the trade discussion previously, Poile has already said we need just a bit more to get this done. And Holmgren has already done so. That is what led to the drastic step of this Offer Sheet. If Holmgren was prepared to give a little bit more then he already is, there would have been no Offer Sheet. And Weber would be a Flyer already.
Absolutely offering less could backfire. But it could also work. If the Flyers read the situation correctly.
I don't see how, with the situation as it is. That Voracek, Meszaros, and some combination of Draft picks, isn't a very good deal for Nashville at this point. And if it's determined that they need to make a deal, how they can walk away from that.
Especially when Schenn lays out Adams, and Adams get's up. And Schenn basically drifts towards him with body language saying "what are you going to do about it?". Right there shows me the competitiveness that's in this kid. Similar to another kid on this team that wears #28. - MJL
Location: me bitter? F-no i think it's hilarious Joined: 12.14.2011
Jul 21 @ 2:21 PM ET
Sure, he might have presented his "best offer" ... at that time. His "best offer" now might be slightly better, because the deal is so close to being completed.
If Polie comes back and says "look, we just need a bit more to get this done" don't you think Homer would listen?
The idea that Homer would offer less now is ridiculous in my opinion. That negotiating ploy often backfires and could force the Preds to harden their stance and take another look at matching. - FlyerGuy
I'm gonna say no, otherwise the OS would never have been offered.
Why in the world would the Flyers give up 3 1st rounders and 3 very decent, young roster players fr a guy who all signs point to him leaving!? This isn't a trade. And last i checked, all Nashville is entitled to is 4 1st rounders..take it or leave it.
Lets not forget, If nashville were going to sign Weber, they would have already.
Nashville cant afford this contract. AND, most of all, Weber made it clear he wants to be a Flyer. This is Nashvilles best opportunity to get something for Weber before losing him for nothing next year. The cards are in the Flyers favor. Give them 3 picks and snd Mez and Bourdon over for 1 pick back...thats it...All this Voracek talk is Bullsh*t...cant lose an entire forward line in one offseason... - Mozzy
Because it is a basic hedge strategy. Here is an analogy. At the beginning of last season, the LA Kings are 200 to 1 odds to win the SC. Say you're a huge Mike Richards, or LA Kings fan. So against all odds you lay down $50 on them to win in all.
Well, they somehow make it to the finals, and now you have a good chance to win 10 grand. If they win. Or nothing if they lose. So you hedge. Let's say NJ is a slight favorite, so you bet $3000 on them straight up to win. If LA wins, you win 10,000 - 3,000 = 7000. If NJ wins you at least get $3000.
That is Holmgren's dilemma right now. He can stand pat and either get Weber for 4 picks or lose him completely. Or he can hedge and maybe give up a player or two but guarantee he gets him.
Sure, he might have presented his "best offer" ... at that time. His "best offer" now might be slightly better, because the deal is so close to being completed.
If Polie comes back and says "look, we just need a bit more to get this done" don't you think Homer would listen?
The idea that Homer would offer less now is ridiculous in my opinion. That negotiating ploy often backfires and could force the Preds to harden their stance and take another look at matching. - FlyerGuy
Your exactly right. Nashville is in better shape than Columbus. I believe it has a stronger ownership group, fan base and winning tradition. People think it is Howsen who is holding up dealing Nash for at least a year now. But, if you dig deeper you will find it is ownership that is insisting on full value in a trade.
It is exactly the same with Weber. Owners will not deal him unless they believe they have value and a marketable product coming back the other way.
You and I have had this discussion many times. You look at what your options are. And you choose what the best option is.
If your buying a car, and your choosing between different models. Do you always choose the most expensive one? Even if you can afford it? Or do you choose the model that makes the most sense? I'm not sure why this can't be grasped. - MJL
Because Weber is better than all the other defenseman in the league. I'm sorry you feel that way about not grasping the concept. Don't get trading in a BMW for a downgrade if you have the money. Isnt what this is all about the money?
Because it is a basic hedge strategy. Here is an analogy. At the beginning of last season, the LA Kings are 200 to 1 odds to win the SC. Say you're a huge Mike Richards, or LA Kings fan. So against all odds you lay down $50 on them to win in all.
Well, they somehow make it to the finals, and now you have a good chance to win 10 grand. If they win. Or nothing if they lose. So you hedge. Let's say NJ is a slight favorite, so you bet $3000 on them straight up to win. If LA wins, you win 10,000 - 3,000 = 7000. If NJ wins you at least get $3000.
That is Holmgren's dilemma right now. He can stand pat and either get Weber for 4 picks or lose him completely. Or he can hedge and maybe give up a player or two but guarantee he gets him.
The only question is...how much is the hedge? - TheGreat28
Because Weber is better than all the other defenseman in the league. I'm sorry you feel that way about not grasping the concept. Don't get trading in a BMW for a downgrade if you have the money. Isnt what this is all about the money? - stveshdy
Weber isn't their only choice. You don't get trading in a BMW for a downgrade if you can afford it? Hasn't the conversation contained talk about Nashville being able to do other things, and build the team around Weber if they match. Haven't you questioned their ability to do so if they match?
Again, it's not about being able to afford Weber. They can. It's about what the best choice for the team going forward out of all the options available to them.
I think during the trade discussion previously, Poile has already said we need just a bit more to get this done. And Holmgren has already done so. That is what led to the drastic step of this Offer Sheet. If Holmgren was prepared to give a little bit more, there would have been no Offer Sheet. And Weber would be a Flyer already.
Absolutely offering less could backfire. But it could also work. If the Flyers read the situation correctly. - MJL
I don't know about that ... maybe the OS is simply being used as leverage to force a trade with the Flyers as opposed to any other team, and not so much because Homer wouldn't give in to what Polie wanted.
But, yeah, I agree that it's possible that the Flyers could get him for the same or slightly less than what Homer was willing to give up before.
I just think that when it all comes down to it that Homer's and Polie's past working relationship will help smooth things out, and the Flyers may end up giving a bit more to get the deal done.
Because it is a basic hedge strategy. Here is an analogy. At the beginning of last season, the LA Kings are 200 to 1 odds to win the SC. Say you're a huge Mike Richards, or LA Kings fan. So against all odds you lay down $50 on them to win in all.
Well, they somehow make it to the finals, and now you have a good chance to win 10 grand. If they win. Or nothing if they lose. So you hedge. Let's say NJ is a slight favorite, so you bet $3000 on them straight up to win. If LA wins, you win 10,000 - 3,000 = 7000. If NJ wins you at least get $3000.
That is Holmgren's dilemma right now. He can stand pat and either get Weber for 4 picks or lose him completely. Or he can hedge and maybe give up a player or two but guarantee he gets him.
The only question is...how much is the hedge? - TheGreat28
I don't know about that ... maybe the OS is simply being used as leverage to force a trade with the Flyers as opposed to any other team, and not so much because Homer wouldn't give in to what Polie wanted.
But, yeah, I agree that it's possible that the Flyers could get him for the same or slightly less than what Homer was willing to give up before.
I just think that when it all comes down to it that Homer's and Polie's past working relationship will help smooth things out, and the Flyers may end up giving a bit more to get the deal done. - FlyerGuy
It definitely is being used as leverage to force a trade, and keeping him away from other teams. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that Holmgren is going to give them more then what his final offer was before signing the OS with Weber.
Weber isn't their only choice. You don't get trading in a BMW for a downgrade if you can afford it? Hasn't the conversation contained talk about Nashville being able to do other things, and build the team around Weber if they match. Haven't you questioned their ability to do so if they match?
Again, it's not about being able to afford Weber. They can. It's about what the best choice for the team going forward out of all the options available to them. - MJL
You specifically said Nashville has the money to match this offer. So I'm saying if they have the money why not keep Weber?
I said to wait it out and call their bluff cause I don't believe they have the money.
Location: HEY. Does this pole still work?, NJ Joined: 01.14.2011
Jul 21 @ 2:35 PM ET
It definitely is being used as leverage to force a trade, and keeping him away from other teams. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that Holmgren is going to give them more then what his final offer was before signing the OS with Weber. - MJL
Yeah, you don't offer sheet someone to offer the team a better trade
It definitely is being used as leverage to force a trade, and keeping him away from other teams. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that Holmgren is going to give them more then what his final offer was before signing the OS with Weber. - MJL
It doesn't mean he will ... but it also doesn't mean he won't.
If anything there is more room for negotiating on both sides, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we end up giving a bit more than Homer offered a couple of weeks back.
You specifically said Nashville has the money to match this offer. So I'm saying if they have the money why not keep Weber?
I said to wait it out and call their bluff cause I don't believe they have the money. - stveshdy
I've explained multiple times why they may choose not to. Do you not see that other options exist that may be better for them long term? I've even offered simple analogies to try and explain why they may not. They have the money, no doubt. Like I've said multiple times. All they need right now to match the offer is 13M.
It doesn't mean he will ... but it also doesn't mean he won't.
If anything there is more room for negotiating on both sides, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we end up giving a bit more than Homer offered a couple of weeks back. - FlyerGuy
I think it pretty much does. The whole reason for giving the OS is that they were at an impasse and couldn't agree to a deal. If Holmgren was prepared to give more, or give just a little more, as you put it. Why didn't he do so, rather then force an OS on Nashville? I think it's pretty obvious that they couldn't come to a compromise between the two teams positions.
Location: me bitter? F-no i think it's hilarious Joined: 12.14.2011
Jul 21 @ 2:40 PM ET
I think it pretty much does. The whole reason for giving the OS is that they were at an impasse and couldn't agree to a deal. If Holmgren was prepared to give more, or give just a little more, as you put it. Why didn't he do so, rather then force an OS on Nashville? I think it's pretty obvious that they couldn't come to a compromise between the two teams positions. - MJL
Well obviously. The thought that it somehow raises the price for Weber is ludacris tho. - hereticpride
oh yeah, I agree ... I wasn't saying it now raised his price. My point was that, in the end, Homer may offer more than he did a week ago to complete this deal and make sure Weber wears O&B.
He may also offer less. He now has more flexibility in what he wants to do.
I've explained multiple times why they may choose not to. Do you not see that other options exist that may be better for them long term? I've even offered simple analogies to try and explain why they may not. They have the money, no doubt. Like I've said multiple times. All they need right now to match the offer is 13M. - MJL
Okay. We're on different levels then. Your basically saying they have money to match but dont have enough to keep him long term? I'm trying to understand. I get they have options but if money isn't an issue to this franchise then why will they have to explore other options when they have money to spend? So in reality if they are having doubts about finances down the road it makes no sense to match this offer sheet unless they want to pay Weber 26m and then trade him. At that point his value will decrease bc teams know he's being shopped. I could be wrong but this is just my opinion of course.
Right, but Homer will hedge with Voracek and Meszaros. Not #10 or #14. - LordStanley88
That's a completely fair guess. Obviously none of us know how far he is prepared to go. I'm kinda more interested in two things. What people here would give up and the combinations of players that people put together.
I think someone that is saying Read, MAB and 2 #1's is kinda weak. But valid offers like Jake/Mesz + a couple of 1sts are at least worthy of conversation.
And nobody really wants to give up 10 or 14, but I do believe Homer would consider it to get Weber.
Consider last year with Bryz. 1st, they gave up 3 mid level picks to secure his rights. That was a hedge to give them an exclusive negotiating window against anyone else that might have been interested, likely Washington. Then, because they paid so much to get his rights, they were committed to signing him, and again overpaid.
That was why I made the chicken and the pig commitment analogy last night.
