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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Dec 2 @ 10:01 AM ET
explain how the leafs have more and or better assets on their team and in their system.

example:

Senators top six forwards > leafs top six forwards

- Doppleganger

ill do a quick breakdown on how im grading it(doesnt mean im right jy my two cents)

coaching -
wilson seems to have the upper hand by a large margin. Toronto has less talent, more points,and i love the system they are playing

management - well now who the hell knows wtf burke will do but fletcher was running a good ship, shows he isnt afraid of making deals where the sens never make that deal to put them over the top

players obviously with heatley, spezza, alfi they have a ton of talent... but talent doesn't always mean wins. This core has never played to their potential besides when they made to to the finals which they rode a goalie they decided to throw under the bus eventually. Their secondary scoring is horrible and nothing is ever done to address it(minor fixes but about it)
They wont move a guy like alfi or spezza for a ton of prospects or players or anything so they arent touchable assets.

cap room toronto has much more

youth toronto has a ton of youth playing, and still winning games

so basically since toronto has accepted to go the route of youth, with the youth, coaching and so on i just think toronto is in a better situation

as ive stated before. If Ottawa would be willing to trade alfredson, spezza, phillips, build around heatley, volchenkov, lee and so on then they would be in a hell of a much better situation... they could get the world for some of these players....
i just dont see them ever be willing to do that
Leafer_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 08.14.2007

Dec 2 @ 10:04 AM ET
explain how the leafs have more and or better assets on their team and in their system.

example:

Senators top six forwards > leafs top six forwards

- Doppleganger


That's not what determines if you are in a better position, it's based on your direction. Leafs are near the bottom and will be moving up eventually, Sens are entering a decline but unwilling to admit so and therefore are worse off.

Plus, the Sens have a bunch of guys with NTCs...all of the guys with value, much like the Leafs last year. If they don't trade Spezza before July 1st they'll be stuck with the team that they have...considering that team has been in steady decline I don't see how it's possible that that would be a good thing.

The Sens definitely have more elite players on their team but they are all forwards and have to carry the team on a nightly basis for them to have a chance at a win. Hell, the Sens probably have a better top 6 forward lineup than most teams in the league...but the other teams also manage to have goaltending, defense and depth.

So long term the Leafs are better off as they are at least acknowledging their flaws and moving towards correcting them...even short term the Leafs appear to be better off than the Sens as they are ahead of them in the standings despite people expecting them to be in the basement of the entire league.

Joined: 12.31.1969

Dec 2 @ 10:13 AM ET
The Sens have some big contracts and are starting to ressemble the post-Stanley Cup Tampa Bay Lightning. Their "big three" in terms of contracts were Lecavalier, Richards and St-Louis...and Ottawa's "big three" are Alfredsson, Spezza and Heatley.

Personally, I think Toronto is in a better situation because they don't have too many players tied up with big contracts at the moment, and their young players & prospects are getting some playing time in order for management to see how to shape the team for the next few years. Ottawa, on the other hand, is somewhat stagnant as an organisation. Not many prospects have made a significant impact, and I think they have too much invested in their top line...let's face it - they're currently a one-line team, and they haven't looked dominant since this time last season.

Arguments can be made the other way around, but I don't think that either team has a clear-cut advantage over the other at the present time. But I will say that Toronto has a better coach, a better goalie, and a better core of young players at the moment.

Kelly, Vermette, Foligno, Lee, Elliot < Grabovski, Stajan, Stempniak, Schenn, Pogge
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Dec 2 @ 10:35 AM ET
If this means anything. The Binghamton Senators are ahead in the Standing over the marlies.

Does anyone know which team has more representation at the upcoming WJC?

Also, who is in a better position for the up coming entry draft? I know the Sens have two picks in the first round.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 11:18 AM ET
Also, who is in a better position for the up coming entry draft? I know the Sens have two picks in the first round.
- Doppleganger


Impossible to answer that until after the trade deadline or even the draft.
jordan456789
Joined: 10.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 11:21 AM ET
Another way to look at it is the sens already have three of what the leafs are trying to build their young players into in Alfie, Heatley and Spezza. I can't see the sens struggling all year and not making a deal. They can easily trade one of the big three and get some depth and prospects. Then in the offseason with the money they save sign a player.
Leafer_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 08.14.2007

Dec 2 @ 12:14 PM ET
Another way to look at it is the sens already have three of what the leafs are trying to build their young players into in Alfie, Heatley and Spezza. I can't see the sens struggling all year and not making a deal. They can easily trade one of the big three and get some depth and prospects. Then in the offseason with the money they save sign a player.
- jordan456789


Well all of their big players have NTCs. Spezza's doesn't kick in until July 1st but Murray is on record as saying he wouldn't trade him...so he'll look pretty bad if he does.
Piccolo
Joined: 04.11.2008

Dec 2 @ 12:38 PM ET
If this means anything. The Binghamton Senators are ahead in the Standing over the marlies.

Does anyone know which team has more representation at the upcoming WJC?

Also, who is in a better position for the up coming entry draft? I know the Sens have two picks in the first round.

- Doppleganger


Most of our impressive youth isn't with the marlies.
Big T
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Please ref, please I am beggin, BC
Joined: 07.11.2006

Dec 2 @ 12:46 PM ET
Most of our impressive youth isn't with the marlies.
- Piccolo


Darren Dreger was on Team 1040 Vancouver and suggested that the cupboard was bare in the AHL for the Leafs except for maybe Pogge. All the Leaf prospects are at the NHL level and Burke has a huge job to start to fill the Marlies with prospects. Now I don't follow the Marlies that closely, but isn't Earl, Williams and Kronwall there.?
nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Dec 2 @ 12:51 PM ET
krownwall is a 5th-6th defender solid in his own end(would of rather him then sign finger
earl is a decent guy 3rd liner tho
williams same good offensive 3rd liner

there isnt any up and coming top 6 forward, top 4 d in the farm really. We got a few good picks this year in the draft but arent ahl bound yet

Tlusty keeps bouncing up and down... id keep him there all year.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 12:59 PM ET
Everyone loves harping on "The Leafs Have No Prospects", but ignores the fact there are other Canadian teams with the same concerns. It gets old.

People should start the "The Leafs Are So Old" arguments again.
scotty
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 06.27.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:03 PM ET
Everyone loves harping on "The Leafs Have No Prospects", but ignores the fact there are other Canadian teams with the same concerns. It gets old.

People should start the "The Leafs Are So Old" arguments again.

- RogerRoeper

Ya but other Canadian teams have good players on their roster, the Leafs don't.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 1:03 PM ET
Ya but other Canadian teams have good players on their roster, the Leafs don't.
- scotty


Yes the Leafs do have some good players.
scotty
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 06.27.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:04 PM ET
Yes the Leafs do have some good players.
- RogerRoeper

Like?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 1:12 PM ET
Like?
- scotty


Grabovski, Schenn, Stralman, Toskala, Kaberle, Kubina, Kulemin, Hagman.
scotty
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 06.27.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:14 PM ET
Grabovski, Schenn, Stralman, Toskala, Kaberle, Kubina, Kulemin, Hagman.
- RogerRoeper

Haha ok, have fun with that.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: he's 35, time to be fart the messenger boy.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:17 PM ET
Prospects on the farm, Ottawa, not by much

Young players with the team, Toronto, by quite a bit.

First line, Ottawa by a country mile (even if they aren't proving it right now)
Second line, Toronto
Third line, toss up
4th line, toss up.

Defense, Toronto, by a long way, in both talent, youth, and depth.

Goaltending, Toronto (this is a guess that Toskala will return to form and so will Auld).

Draft picks, Ottawa.

So, if Ottawa commits to a rebuild, they could probably jump ahead of the Leafs. As long as they don't blow it all up, I give the nod to the Leafs.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: he's 35, time to be fart the messenger boy.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:18 PM ET
Darren Dreger was on Team 1040 Vancouver and suggested that the cupboard was bare in the AHL for the Leafs except for maybe Pogge. All the Leaf prospects are at the NHL level and Burke has a huge job to start to fill the Marlies with prospects. Now I don't follow the Marlies that closely, but isn't Earl, Williams and Kronwall there.?
- Big T


Yeah but Earl, Williams, Kronvall will amount to nothing in the NHL.

*maybe* Tlusty will be a decent player one day, but more than likely, he is a bust also.

So, I guess we hope for Pogge, which isn't much hope.
habfan2010
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Mad Max, AB
Joined: 11.21.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:19 PM ET
The sens are in a much better situation solely based on their assets. At anytime, anyone would take any of heatley, spezza, and alffy from them and the sens would get huge return.

Go down the list and the assets the sens possess are much greater than the leafs. If both the leafs and sens at this point decide to rebuild ( i know the leafs already have)... All the sens would have to do is deal guys like the big 3, volchenkov, phillips...and they would be well ahead of the leafs already in their rebuild process. Hope that makes sense.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 1:26 PM ET
Haha ok, have fun with that.
- scotty


Yeah, they're just all garbage, aren't they?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Dec 2 @ 1:28 PM ET
Since we're quoting Darren Dreger saying the Leafs have nothing in terms of future, i'll quote Scotty Bowman on the radio this morning saying he loves the Leafs defense, and says they're underrated, and no "Rebuilding" needs to be done in regards to defense at all.
habfan2010
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Mad Max, AB
Joined: 11.21.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:39 PM ET
Since we're quoting Darren Dreger saying the Leafs have nothing in terms of future, i'll quote Scotty Bowman on the radio this morning saying he loves the Leafs defense, and says they're underrated, and no "Rebuilding" needs to be done in regards to defense at all.
- RogerRoeper

Good point. Their D isn't as bad as the forward group.
Big T
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Please ref, please I am beggin, BC
Joined: 07.11.2006

Dec 2 @ 1:51 PM ET
Since we're quoting Darren Dreger saying the Leafs have nothing in terms of future, i'll quote Scotty Bowman on the radio this morning saying he loves the Leafs defense, and says they're underrated, and no "Rebuilding" needs to be done in regards to defense at all.
- RogerRoeper


What would Bowman know..........
Piccolo
Joined: 04.11.2008

Dec 2 @ 1:57 PM ET
We have two sets of prospects - none really in the AHL.

NHL level - Kulemin, Stralman, Schenn, Mitchell, Grabovski - not great, but definitely not bad.

Junior Level/NCAA - Dale Mitchell, Rau, DiDomenico, Ruegesseger, Hayes, Stefanovich - again, not great, but not bad.

In between would be the AHL, which is very thin.

AHL - Tlusty, Pogge -- only two legitimate prospects in my opinion.

Foster, Earl, Williams, Kronwall - unfortunately have all missed their chance in my opinion.
Leafer_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 08.14.2007

Dec 2 @ 2:14 PM ET
The sens are in a much better situation solely based on their assets. At anytime, anyone would take any of heatley, spezza, and alffy from them and the sens would get huge return.

Go down the list and the assets the sens possess are much greater than the leafs. If both the leafs and sens at this point decide to rebuild ( i know the leafs already have)... All the sens would have to do is deal guys like the big 3, volchenkov, phillips...and they would be well ahead of the leafs already in their rebuild process. Hope that makes sense.

- habfan2010


Nobody here is disagreeing with that but the simple fact is that the Sens are not rebuilding and don't seem to show any signs that they will even re-tool or make any changes. They've done nothing but stand pat or tinker as they have got worse and worse.

As for their big players getting a good return: Yes, if they waived their NTCs. Much like Toronto last year...if they had moved even two or three of Sundin, McCabe, Kaberle, Kubina or Tucker last year they would have had multiple first round picks and several young prospects (Bernier, Carter, Higgins, etc. according to rumors). But obviously it's not that simple if Heatley, Spezza (in July), Alfie, Fisher, Philips and whoever else (if any) decide they want to stay in Ottawa.
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