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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Nov 27 @ 4:57 PM ET


┬▒The Leafs on the other hand are a worse team who are already in the rebuilding stage and will likely shave a few years off it at this trade deadline if burke can move some of the vets for additional first round picks and young player or prospects.

- Leafer_84


I'm not saying that there isn't a "Vet" that might be worth a 1st round pick in a trade............But is there going to be a team, that thinks it's worth a 1st rounder for one of the leafs "Vets" AND ALSO has cap room that following season(s). ZERO teams are going to trade a 1st rounder for a "Vet" who's in thier last year of their contract (rental).

So either you are overrating the "Vets" on the leafs roster, or figure the planets are going to align for the leaf GM and there is a contender in need of a "Vet" who can make the space under the Cap (that may be going down?) and is also willing to shed a 1st rounder.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Nov 27 @ 4:58 PM ET
sens by far they have to franchise guys to build around in heatley and spezza.
they can chose to keep them both or trade one, theyd get huge return since they are past producers and signed long term, unsure of the ntc situation tho.

- sniper12

Heatley has one, and Speeza's kicks in on July 1st next year..........so he could be traded........but I doubt it.
sniper12
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Canada, ON
Joined: 09.27.2006

Nov 27 @ 5:00 PM ET
Heatley has one, and Speeza's kicks in on July 1st next year..........so he could be traded........but I doubt it.
- Doppleganger



franchise centre much hard to fine than a franchise winger. but i think heater is the way better than spezza and anyone who plays with heater hed still score so i guess it doesnt matter
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Nov 27 @ 5:45 PM ET
sens by far they have to franchise guys to build around in heatley and spezza.
- sniper12


But they're building around them now and they've been the worst team in hockey in the 2008 calender year. What's it getting them exactly?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Nov 27 @ 5:46 PM ET
I'm not saying that there isn't a "Vet" that might be worth a 1st round pick in a trade............But is there going to be a team, that thinks it's worth a 1st rounder for one of the leafs "Vets" AND ALSO has cap room that following season(s). ZERO teams are going to trade a 1st rounder for a "Vet" who's in thier last year of their contract (rental).

So either you are overrating the "Vets" on the leafs roster, or figure the planets are going to align for the leaf GM and there is a contender in need of a "Vet" who can make the space under the Cap (that may be going down?) and is also willing to shed a 1st rounder.

- Doppleganger


Kaberle is without a doubt worth a first rounder.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Nov 27 @ 6:12 PM ET
But they're building around them now and they've been the worst team in hockey in the 2008 calender year. What's it getting them exactly?
- RogerRoeper


They're just starting to get some quality prospects into the system, so if they can develop into solid support players, in 2-3 years the Sens can be back to where they were.
Kaberle
Location: Lake Shore Arena
Joined: 11.04.2005

Nov 27 @ 8:19 PM ET
Brenden Bell is sh*t... I thought the Leafs traded him to Phoenix for a 7th rounder and a bag of pucks? Now he's Ottawa's PP quarterback. Otawa has gone from Chara to Redden to Bell. Sad

This has nothing to do with whos in a better situation... but God has Ottawa declined (without aknowledging it).
Jay Gulley
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 01.08.2008

Nov 27 @ 8:36 PM ET
They're just starting to get some quality prospects into the system, so if they can develop into solid support players, in 2-3 years the Sens can be back to where they were.
- sens rock




Yeah, with guys like Nick Foligno the Sens are well on their way!
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Nov 27 @ 9:00 PM ET
Yeah, with guys like Nick Foligno the Sens are well on their way!
- Jay Gulley


Well he isn't any worse than Tlusty.
Jay Gulley
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 01.08.2008

Nov 27 @ 9:14 PM ET
Well he isn't any worse than Tlusty.
- sens rock




He's much worse.
Jay Gulley
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 01.08.2008

Nov 27 @ 9:14 PM ET
Well he isn't any worse than Tlusty.
- sens rock




He's much worse.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Nov 27 @ 9:15 PM ET
He's much worse.
- Jay Gulley


based on what??
Jay Gulley
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 01.08.2008

Nov 27 @ 9:30 PM ET
based on what??
- sens rock



Based on the fact that Foligno sucks.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Nov 27 @ 9:47 PM ET
Based on the fact that Foligno sucks.
- Jay Gulley


good reasoning...
Jay Gulley
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 01.08.2008

Nov 27 @ 9:51 PM ET
good reasoning...
- sens rock



Thanks
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Nov 28 @ 1:52 AM ET
Kaberle is without a doubt worth a first rounder.
- RogerRoeper


Can you show one instance, when a "Vet" has been traded for a 1st rounder at the trade deadline?
nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Nov 28 @ 9:05 AM ET
i havent read the entire thread so might be off base, also its not straight up 1st but
Montreal Canadiens traded Craig Rivet and a 5th round selection in 2008 to the San Jose Sharks for Josh Gorges and a 1st round selection in 2007.

i
Paul99
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 06.29.2006

Nov 28 @ 9:16 AM ET
i think both teams suck, but if you had to choose one, i cant see anyone who isnt biased that wouldnt choose ottawa. they started bad but they will finish way ahead of the leafs, youll see alffy and heatley will be unleashed from their slump.....spezza on the other hand, you never know what to expect with that cocky, selfish, wimp of a player
nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Nov 28 @ 9:34 AM ET
we all agree that they are 3 amazing players... but theres more to a team then 3 players
depth, prospects, coaching,

When it comes to top end talent ottawa wins hands down, but the rest of your team is friggin garbage. Its not being biased its being realistic

your not gonna trade anyone of substance to get a ton of prospects. You will stay status quo and rot in it
Paul99
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 06.29.2006

Nov 28 @ 9:37 AM ET
we all agree that they are 3 amazing players... but theres more to a team then 3 players
depth, prospects, coaching,

When it comes to top end talent ottawa wins hands down, but the rest of your team is friggin garbage. Its not being biased its being realistic

your not gonna trade anyone of substance to get a ton of prospects. You will stay status quo and rot in it

- nightmare3020


id consider volchenkov and phillips as good also
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Nov 28 @ 9:41 AM ET
i think both teams suck, but if you had to choose one, i cant see anyone who isnt biased that wouldnt choose ottawa. they started bad but they will finish way ahead of the leafs, youll see alffy and heatley will be unleashed from their slump.....spezza on the other hand, you never know what to expect with that cocky, selfish, wimp of a player
- Paul99


Maybe it's you that's biased? This isn't just a "Bad Start". For the last 12 months Ottawa has been just horrible. This isn't jump some slump. This is the exact attitude that will kill the Sens: Making yourself believe this team is still strong and saying status quo is the best thing to do.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Nov 28 @ 9:43 AM ET
Can you show one instance, when a "Vet" has been traded for a 1st rounder at the trade deadline?
- Doppleganger


Dwayne Rolloson. And he wasn't even a starter at the time.

Marian Hossa last season.

Ryan Smith.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Nov 28 @ 11:36 AM ET
Maybe it's you that's biased? This isn't just a "Bad Start". For the last 12 months Ottawa has been just horrible. This isn't jump some slump. This is the exact attitude that will kill the Sens: Making yourself believe this team is still strong and saying status quo is the best thing to do.
- RogerRoeper


OR................this is a team that imploded over the last half of last season, and because of that, in the off season, made a lot of roster moves and brought in the third coach in less than a year who has changed the system from offense first to defense first, and a lot of the players are finally coming around to the new system.

BTW just to point out that "the last 12 months" as you put it, is a bit of a stretch..........they had the best start of any NHL club in history to the 30 point mark, at 15-2-0 last year at this time.




Joined: 12.31.1969

Nov 28 @ 12:10 PM ET
Simply put, the Leafs are in a better situation.

The Leafs finally admitted (albeit a few years late) that it's time to rebuild. They have many buidling blocks in place in order to return to form as a competent & competitive organization in the NHL. They have a solid goalie in Toskala, who would look even better with a stronger defensive corps in front of him. They drafted Luke Shenn, who is on his way to become a very good defenseman, and will likely be one of the top young defensemen in the East. Cliff Fletcher has actually surprised me by making some smart moves, especially with his latest trade (for Stempniak). If they focus on drafting & player development, and if Burke lives up to the expectations as the team's GM, they will soon be on the way up. As long as they stay the course, they have nowhere to go but up.

The Sens, on the other hand, are a troubled organization. They keep burying their heads in the sand by coming up with band-aid solutions instead of correctly addressing certain situations. I seriously believed that with Bryan Murray replacing John Muckler as GM, that they would get back on track...but sadly for Sens fans, it hasn't happened. Siginig Martin Gerber as a starting goalie would not have been such a big mistake had they focused on strengthening their defense - since they failed in that regard, Gerber looks like the main problem in Ottawa, when he's in fact the least of their concerns. As good as he is, Daniel Alfredsson is not the right player to lead this team to the "promised land" IMO. Furthermore, Jason Spezza is a detriment to this team - he has loads of talent, but doesn't have the attitude to use his talent towards helping his team. Dany Heatley is a downgrade from Marian Hossa, who Muckler was crazy to have traded in the first place. On top of that, they let 2 important defensemen go without compensation when they mishandled the Chara & Redden situations. They could have traded Chara knwoing full well he would test the free agent market, but didn't in the hopes he would re-sign. Although he was on a downslide, they could have traded Redden for a pick & a few prospects, but Murray fell asleep on that one. Instead, he held on to Redden in the hopes that the team would turn things around in the playoffs...and got swept in the first round. This Ottawa team lacks leadership and motivation, and the worst part is the fact that the organization and many of their fans believe they'll eventually turn things around because "they're still a very good team"...although realistically, Ottawa is now a middle-of-the-pack team in the East.
jordan456789
Joined: 10.27.2007

Nov 28 @ 12:59 PM ET
I think the sens are leaps and bounds in a better position than the leafs.

The present
The leafs and sens are tied in the standing but the sens should finish better. The sens had a meltdown at the end of last year and couldn't turn it around but were still a good team. They got off to a bad start but i don't think they are far off from being a good team. They are going from an offensive team to playing defense. If the stars can pick it up like they usually do and if Fisher or Vermette can pick it up they are a pretty good team. Don't forget it wasn't that long ago they were an elite team. The leafs on the other hand are producing as much as projected and i don't see a lot of room for them to improve.


The future

The leafs are doing a pretty good job of rebuilding but who do they have that can get them top notch prospects or draft picks besided Kablerle? Where the leafs are at an advantage is they are already rebuilding giving the young players ice time. The reason i think the sens can even be better in the futyer is they can wait and see how this season goes and if they are still struggling they have loads of assets they can trade to bring in a bunch of prospects and picks. One trade involving Heatley, Spezza or Alfredson would get them enough to put them ahead of the leafs in rebuilding because of the return.

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