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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:10 PM ET
people dont assume that.
So ya

- senstroll



Thats' exactly what this implies

Shattenkirk finished this past season with a 53% CF rating, good for 23rd in the NHL among D who played 1000 minutes. That is an elite rating. He scored 53 points and when he was on the ice, his team too 53% of the shots. If you cause your team to get more shots than the other team, you can’t be bad at defense, and Shattenkirk is certainly not.



CF%, as you know, is ratio of shot attempts for vs against.

"If you cause your team to get more shots than the other team, you can't be bad at defense".

that says, in the scenario I gave, the guy that gives up more shots than the rest of his team, is considered good defensively, according to that statement. simply because he encourages more shots for.

prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:11 PM ET
Literally all his stats prove is that in his role (2nd pairing, often 3rd pairing, 4th in ES) he excelled. From that someone has come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 dman. Honestly it's laughable. This is where advanced stats go wrong. You need context.
- daeth

yes, completely agree. Too many look at a couple of statistics, that they deem important, and think that's everything they need to know. CF%, Corsi relative to team, being the two most common.

It's ridiculous.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:12 PM ET
Literally all his stats prove is that in his role (2nd pairing, often 3rd pairing, 4th in ES) he excelled. From that someone has come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 dman. Honestly it's laughable. This is where advanced stats go wrong. You need context.
- daeth


I think that is point about Phaneuf. He logged really hard minutes all year and provided warrior like support for his team mates. It is ludicrous to believe that Shattenkirk would give you anything even close to what Phaneuf does for the Sens.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:14 PM ET
Thats' exactly what this implies




CF%, as you know, is ratio of shot attempts for vs against.

"If you cause your team to get more shots than the other team, you can't be bad at defense".

that says, in the scenario I gave, the guy that gives up more shots than the rest of his team, is considered good defensively, according to that statement. simply because he encourages more shots for.

- prock


But you can be Bobby Orr and lead the attack and still be a good defender one on one or in blocking shots.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 2:24 PM ET
Literally all his stats prove is that in his role (2nd pairing, often 3rd pairing, 4th in ES) he excelled. From that someone has come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 dman. Honestly it's laughable. This is where advanced stats go wrong. You need context.
- daeth


Some context

Stl and Washington have very good D. being a 2nd pairing D on those teams is not a knock

spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:24 PM ET
It is boring, cold and wet at the cottage.

Going to have a hot dog with mustard and lots of onions.

Then I am going to have a great afternoon nap.

Last week we went fishing and we dislodged the drain plug on the bass boat as we went down a shallow creek that links two lakes.

Anyway the hull of the bass boat filled with water below the 10" boat deck. Not until the water began overflowing the deck did notice we were sinking. We were able to get the boat started and ran it full out with the nose up at a 45 degree angle in order to drain the weight.

We survived and got the boat safely to shore.

Glad everybody is alive and happy.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:28 PM ET
But you can be Bobby Orr and lead the attack and still be a good defender one on one or in blocking shots.
- spatso


yes, never said you couldn't. Drew Doughty and Victor Hedman are perfect examples.

It's not as simple as one stat. There is always context.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:31 PM ET
Some context

Stl and Washington have very good D. being a 2nd pairing D on those teams is not a knock

- senstroll


I don't think that is what he is saying. But if you are the 4th best Dman on a team you just don't get into the same action.

So, for example imagine playing Edmonton but not having to face McDavid on any shift. And, then, being statistically compared with the guy who went head to head with McDavid on every shift he played. I think that is the issue where I agree entirely with Prock on the whole shot suppression issue
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:32 PM ET
yes, never said you couldn't. Drew Doughty and Victor Hedman are perfect examples.

It's not as simple as one stat. There is always context.

- prock


Herman yes. Doughty not so much.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 2:35 PM ET
Thats' exactly what this implies




CF%, as you know, is ratio of shot attempts for vs against.

"If you cause your team to get more shots than the other team, you can't be bad at defense".

that says, in the scenario I gave, the guy that gives up more shots than the rest of his team, is considered good defensively, according to that statement. simply because he encourages more shots for.

- prock


if he is getting 53% of the shot share, thats better than 47% and just allowing less shots overall.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:36 PM ET
Herman yes. Doughty not so much.
- spatso



Doughty? Umm, yes. He's top 5 in the league defensively, and still drives a poop tonne of offense.

He didn't have a good year, mind you, but normally he's top tier elite defensively, and his teams number one offensive contributor from the blue line. And he does that for a top team. 5 years, the best two way defender in the league. hedman now getitng up there, maybe taking that title over though.

prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:37 PM ET
if he is getting 53% of the shot share, thats better than 47% and just allowing less shots overall.
- senstroll



it's not better defensively. it's better overall.

and of course, these numbers still require context.

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