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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
twiztedmike
Seattle Kraken
Joined: 10.06.2007

Jun 29 @ 1:25 PM ET
Scoreboard says 0 cups for the Sens and 0 playoff victories over the Leafs, oh and a coveted 28th pick.
- Aetherial

best pick of the draft
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tavares is sledge hockey level - Islesrbettr, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jun 29 @ 1:27 PM ET
I don't believe that for a second.
- spatso



The same guys that you're dismissing about phanuef rumors are same ones who you linked about shatenkirk
daeth
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: accuratently, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Jun 29 @ 1:28 PM ET
pooptykirk is just an expensive pp specialist

pass
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 1:28 PM ET
Very cold and wet at cottage.

Not nice for fishing.

Hard getting summer up to speed.

- spatso


Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 1:30 PM ET
I don't believe that for a second.
- spatso


Well, you bring up very interesting point.





That you are an idiot.


Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 1:31 PM ET
The one where the lights went out.....
- burn


The light bulb has been out in spatso’s head for a while.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 1:32 PM ET
The same guys that you're dismissing about phanuef rumors are same ones who you linked about shatenkirk
- burn


Yes, this is true. They seem to come out of a narrow band of sources. Some turn out to be true. Some never see the light of day.
senstroll
Location: New Fan, Needs to watch Ballet, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 1:36 PM ET
Not as good as Phaneuf and longer remaining term.
- spatso


lol

oh and ignore age thats fine
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tavares is sledge hockey level - Islesrbettr, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jun 29 @ 1:37 PM ET
Yes, this is true. They seem to come out of a narrow band of sources. Some turn out to be true. Some never see the light of day.
- spatso



So you just decide what is and isn't true? How on earth do you say something someone say isn't true, but something the same guys says is unequivocally the truth?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 1:38 PM ET
lol

oh and ignore age thats fine

- senstroll


Phaneuf is same age as Methot. Sens have great help coming.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/vid...to-sens-defence%7E1156624
senstroll
Location: New Fan, Needs to watch Ballet, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 1:41 PM ET
pooptykirk is just an expensive pp specialist

pass

- daeth



Take this for what its worth, but he is not just that..not even close.

https://editorinleaf.com/...eafs-kevin-shattenkirk-2/



Kevin Shattenkirk just had his seventh straight 40+ point season (if you prorate the lockout) and finished with 56 points. He had 23 5v5 points, good for 23rd in the NHL (same amount as Jake Gardiner)


Shattenkirk vs Prototype #1

As you can see, he compares well. What is most impressive about Shattenkirk, is that he plays excellent defense. Elite even. Though he’s known as a high-risk offensive defenseman, the stats just don’t back that up. He is ranked an 8 out of 10 in shot-suppression.

Shattenkirk finished this past season with a 53% CF rating, good for 23rd in the NHL among D who played 1000 minutes. That is an elite rating. He scored 53 points and when he was on the ice, his team too 53% of the shots. If you cause your team to get more shots than the other team, you can’t be bad at defense, and Shattenkirk is certainly not.

In the last five years, Shattenkirk has a corsi-for % of 54% which means that when he is on the ice, his team gets 54% of all shot-attempts. This is elite. There are 210 defenseman – roughly – in the NHL and last year, 12 of them had CF% over 54.

The defensive impact of Shattenkirk is off the charts. Not only does he provide elite offensive production, he provides elite defensive production. He is one of the best players in the NHL. At worst, he’s a top 20 NHL defenseman.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jun 29 @ 1:47 PM ET
Take this for what its worth, but he is not just that..not even close.

https://editorinleaf.com/...eafs-kevin-shattenkirk-2/

- senstroll



I don't see why people assume that if you're on the ice for more shots for your team than against, you're automatically good defensively.

That could very easily mean you're giving up a lot of shots, just taking more.

You could give up the most shots/60 on your team, but because you take a lot more, that means you're good defensively?

No, not really.

All that means is that you play a style that allows for a lot of shots in both directions, and you play it well. I still consider that bad defensively. It's just better offensively than you are bad defensively.
daeth
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: accuratently, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Jun 29 @ 1:51 PM ET
Take this for what its worth, but he is not just that..not even close.

https://editorinleaf.com/...eafs-kevin-shattenkirk-2/

- senstroll

advanced stats have no answer for player usage. until they do they are just "neat" and should not be used to come to any concrete conclusions on their own. that they can come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 player when he's 4th in ES TOI among D on one team should illustrate the issue.

as a sheltered player pooptykirk is pretty great. he was at times a 3rd pairing guy in st louis. that has impacted his stats greatly. get him on the leafs on the 3rd pair for 3rd pair money and i'm happy. give him 1st pairing money and play him as a #1 dman and there will be issues.
senstroll
Location: New Fan, Needs to watch Ballet, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 1:58 PM ET
I don't see why people assume that if you're on the ice for more shots for your team than against, you're automatically good defensively.

That could very easily mean you're giving up a lot of shots, just taking more.

You could give up the most shots/60 on your team, but because you take a lot more, that means you're good defensively?

No, not really.

All that means is that you play a style that allows for a lot of shots in both directions, and you play it well. I still consider that bad defensively. It's just better offensively than you are bad defensively.

- prock


people dont assume that.
So ya
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 1:59 PM ET
I don't see why people assume that if you're on the ice for more shots for your team than against, you're automatically good defensively.

That could very easily mean you're giving up a lot of shots, just taking more.

You could give up the most shots/60 on your team, but because you take a lot more, that means you're good defensively?

No, not really.

All that means is that you play a style that allows for a lot of shots in both directions, and you play it well. I still consider that bad defensively. It's just better offensively than you are bad defensively.

- prock


I agree.

I think that you have to be careful with Shattenkirk. Both St. Louis and Washington were strong teams. Sometimes numbers are more about the team than an individual player. I have never seen Shattenkirk in the same light as some of his promoters. It just seems to me that St. Louis let him go without an excessive amount of anguish. I wondered if he was 4th ranked out of their top 4?
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 1:59 PM ET
advanced stats have no answer for player usage. until they do they are just "neat" and should not be used to come to any concrete conclusions on their own. that they can come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 player when he's 4th in ES TOI among D on one team should illustrate the issue.

as a sheltered player pooptykirk is pretty great. he was at times a 3rd pairing guy in st louis. that has impacted his stats greatly. get him on the leafs on the 3rd pair for 3rd pair money and i'm happy. give him 1st pairing money and play him as a #1 dman and there will be issues.

- daeth


Year Salary
1 8
2 8
3 8
4 7
5 6
6 5
7 4

i would do a contract like this. bad contracts aren't a big problem anymore.

ottawa is the trash bin of the league for those. won't be a problem dumping shattenkirk there if we structure the contract right.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:01 PM ET
advanced stats have no answer for player usage. until they do they are just "neat" and should not be used to come to any concrete conclusions on their own. that they can come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 player when he's 4th in ES TOI among D on one team should illustrate the issue.

as a sheltered player pooptykirk is pretty great. he was at times a 3rd pairing guy in st louis. that has impacted his stats greatly. get him on the leafs on the 3rd pair for 3rd pair money and i'm happy. give him 1st pairing money and play him as a #1 dman and there will be issues.

- daeth


I agree
senstroll
Location: New Fan, Needs to watch Ballet, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 29 @ 2:02 PM ET
advanced stats have no answer for player usage. until they do they are just "neat" and should not be used to come to any concrete conclusions on their own. that they can come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 player when he's 4th in ES TOI among D on one team should illustrate the issue.

as a sheltered player pooptykirk is pretty great. he was at times a 3rd pairing guy in st louis. that has impacted his stats greatly. get him on the leafs on the 3rd pair for 3rd pair money and i'm happy. give him 1st pairing money and play him as a #1 dman and there will be issues.

- daeth


Conclusions like this?

pooptykirk is just an expensive pp specialist


umm Sure...carry on
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jun 29 @ 2:02 PM ET
Guys.

You're on the same side as spasto and mcguire.


If that doesn't raise a red flag, I don't know what will.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:03 PM ET
Year Salary
1 8
2 8
3 8
4 7
5 6
6 5
7 4

i would do a contract like this. bad contracts aren't a big problem anymore.

ottawa is the trash bin of the league for those. won't be a problem dumping shattenkirk there if we structure the contract right.

- Tumbleweed


That sort of looks like the Leafs that we have all come to love.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jun 29 @ 2:05 PM ET
That sort of looks like the Leafs that we have all come to love.
- spatso

The Leafs that dump junk contracts on the Sens?

Agreed.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 2:06 PM ET
The Leafs that dump junk contracts on the Sens?

Agreed.

- Feeling Glucky?


I third this.

I love it when the leafs dump crap on the Sens
daeth
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: accuratently, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Jun 29 @ 2:08 PM ET
Conclusions like this?



umm Sure...carry on

- senstroll

Literally all his stats prove is that in his role (2nd pairing, often 3rd pairing, 4th in ES) he excelled. From that someone has come to the conclusion that he's a top 20 dman. Honestly it's laughable. This is where advanced stats go wrong. You need context.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 29 @ 2:08 PM ET
The Leafs that dump junk contracts on the Sens?

Agreed.

- Feeling Glucky?


Does not matter how you slice it. Sens went to ECF. Other than for Karlsson and Anderson, no player contributed more to the Sens success this year than Dion Phaneuf.

We all know this is upsetting to many Leaf fans...but your just going to have to learn to accept it.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: avid reader of the daily douche news
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 29 @ 2:10 PM ET
Does not matter how you slice it. Sens went to ECF. Other than for Karlsson and Anderson, no player contributed more to the Sens success this year than Dion Phaneuf.

We all know this is upsetting to many Leaf fans...but your just going to have to learn to accept it.

- spatso


nothing burger. keep serving them up.
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