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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 17 @ 10:26 AM ET
How about this?

1) Younger players who didn't immediatedly light up the league will have their numbers skewed by their early years, and a career PPG doesn't illustrate the level of competition the player is currently at..


2) if either of you had bothered to read the link, you'd see that Kessel, along with any other player that hasn't hit 500 points yet(think Hall, Stamkos, Eberle, Giroux, Tavares- all of whom anybody in their right mind would take over Spezza) is excluded from that list.

3) deal with those facts

- Feeling Glucky?


So, who does Kessel get dealt to?
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jul 17 @ 10:30 AM ET
So, who does Kessel get dealt to?
- spatso


Toronto
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 17 @ 10:49 AM ET
So, who does Kessel get dealt to?
- spatso

It is the tactic of the inferior man to change the topic rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 17 @ 1:36 PM ET
As previously stated (and as usual, ignored by you) I don't agree with that assesment. I just had to comment on the sheer stupidity of using career point-per-game of players with 500 career points to argue that an oft-injured veteran is better than a burgeoning young talent who hasnt' yet met the qualifications of the list.
- Feeling Glucky?

It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 17 @ 1:42 PM ET
This is according to your logic dopps. Yours alone.

Kaberle is in that top-50 group. Karlsson is not.

- Feeling Glucky?



It was a leaf fan's logic that started this whole discussion with this post.

Kessel is a superstar. He plays every game, and is now PPG regular season player and playoff performer And he does this with Bozak as his centre.

I picked them to miss the playoffs too. The issue I have is if a guy on TSN picks them to make it, he's a lahuingstock to make the Leaf-haters happy.

- RogerRoeper


RogerRoeper is probably the most level headed leaf fan here (Spatso a very close second)...........however he cherry picked Kessel's last two seasons to make the stretch that Kessel is a superstar.

IMO Kessel has not been around long enough to attain consideration for superstar status, and made the point by comparing him to the often bashed Spezza.


As for your Kaberle vs Karlsson comparison, well that's just plain silly.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 17 @ 1:57 PM ET
Kessel's first 7(full) seasons in the NHL > 313 pts in 504 games = .62 P/PG

Spezza' first 7 (full) seasons in the NHL > 375 pts in 511 games = .73 P/PG


(assuming my math is correct, so please check)

.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 17 @ 2:33 PM ET
It was a leaf fan's logic that started this whole discussion with this post.


- Doppleganger

doesn't change the fact that by your own logic, Kaberle is the superior player to Karlsson.


RogerRoeper is probably the most level headed leaf fan here (Spatso a very close second)...........however he cherry picked Kessel's last two seasons to make the stretch that Kessel is a superstar.

Spasto, as you well know, is not a Leafs fan, just a member of the "Senators Troll Squad", headed up by you.

citing a guy's stats after he's broken out, rather than letting his younger age stats hold him back isn't cherry picking either, it's taking a more accurate look at the player he currently is. Looking two seasons back is fairly common practice, to make sure you're not just looking at a lucky season, and aren't looking too far back at years that aren't relevant.


IMO Kessel has not been around long enough to attain consideration for superstar status, and made the point by comparing him to the often bashed Spezza.

again, I wasn't arguing Kessel was a superstar. I was just pointing out how nauseatingly idiotic your argument was.

As for your Kaberle vs Karlsson comparison, well that's just plain silly.

Funny how you say that pretty much every time I apply the logic you use against Leafs players against Sens players.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 17 @ 2:39 PM ET
Kessel's first 7(full) seasons in the NHL > 313 pts in 504 games = .62 P/PG

Spezza' first 7 (full) seasons in the NHL > 375 pts in 511 games = .73 P/PG



.

- Doppleganger

Now, consider other factors, like illness, age, linemates, the quality of team each player was on, etc, etc.


Spezza's stats are bloated by playing with Heatly and Alfredsson when they were at their best. He also had two additional developmental years over Kessel, and didn't have t deal with cancer.


What do you call it when somebody takes the one point(ppg, +/-, TOI) that help their argument, and ignores everything else? Could it be... cherry picking?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Jul 17 @ 7:16 PM ET
I'm actually a big fan of Spezza's. This guy is a true #1 centre and very underrated.

What's hurting him is his health. He'd be that true "Superstar" if he played more. That's the only negative on him.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Jul 17 @ 7:18 PM ET
It was a leaf fan's logic that started this whole discussion with this post.



RogerRoeper is probably the most level headed leaf fan here (Spatso a very close second)...........however he cherry picked Kessel's last two seasons to make the stretch that Kessel is a superstar.

IMO Kessel has not been around long enough to attain consideration for superstar status, and made the point by comparing him to the often bashed Spezza.


As for your Kaberle vs Karlsson comparison, well that's just plain silly.

- Doppleganger



To be fair, it's not like his best stats were years ago. He is hitting his prime and playing great now. Is it cherry-picking by talking about the two most recent seasons?

I will point out, 3 seasons ago him getting 30+ goals and 60+ points with Bozak (Who was terrible that season) and Crabb was very underrated. He got that playing mostly with plugs.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 17 @ 7:32 PM ET
doesn't change the fact that by your own logic, Kaberle is the superior player to Karlsson.


Spasto, as you well know, is not a Leafs fan, just a member of the "Senators Troll Squad", headed up by you.

citing a guy's stats after he's broken out, rather than letting his younger age stats hold him back isn't cherry picking either, it's taking a more accurate look at the player he currently is. Looking two seasons back is fairly common practice, to make sure you're not just looking at a lucky season, and aren't looking too far back at years that aren't relevant.


again, I wasn't arguing Kessel was a superstar. I was just pointing out how nauseatingly idiotic your argument was.

Funny how you say that pretty much every time I apply the logic you use against Leafs players against Sens players.

- Feeling Glucky?


It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 17 @ 7:34 PM ET
To be fair, it's not like his best stats were years ago. He is hitting his prime and playing great now. Is it cherry-picking by talking about the two most recent seasons?

I will point out, 3 seasons ago him getting 30+ goals and 60+ points with Bozak (Who was terrible that season) and Crabb was very underrated. He got that playing mostly with plugs.

- RogerRoeper



I don't consider either Kessel or Spezza superstars............both have to put a few more good full seasons in the bank.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 6:17 AM ET
It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
- Doppleganger

spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 18 @ 7:23 AM ET
It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
- Doppleganger


St. Paul taught us that we need to search within ourselves to try and discover our lesser selves, it is the self within us that we have always hidden from others for fear they will see us as being inadequate. But, he explains, this inward journey will enable us to discover that this hidden lesser self has, in fact, always been our greater self and in our fear to reveal it to others we have failed to be present to our own selves and our own power.

Darth Vader misrepresented St. Paul just a little when he encouraged Luke to embrace his dark side. The Phantom of the Opera opened the dark side for Christine in order that she might find the power of her own voice.

Leaf fans who have never dealt fully with their own long and suffering anguish through the years of disappointment at the hands of the blue and white are destined to repeat the disappointment. Leafs are doing well. But, to somehow try and pretend this team is now an elite contender is madness and only possible if you deny the dark side and the reality of the scoreboard over the last decade.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jul 18 @ 8:37 AM ET
St. Paul taught us that we need to search within ourselves to try and discover our lesser selves, it is the self within us that we have always hidden from others for fear they will see us as being inadequate. But, he explains, this inward journey will enable us to discover that this hidden lesser self has, in fact, always been our greater self and in our fear to reveal it to others we have failed to be present to our own selves and our own power.

Darth Vader misrepresented St. Paul just a little when he encouraged Luke to embrace his dark side. The Phantom of the Opera opened the dark side for Christine in order that she might find the power of her own voice.

Leaf fans who have never dealt fully with their own long and suffering anguish through the years of disappointment at the hands of the blue and white are destined to repeat the disappointment. Leafs are doing well. But, to somehow try and pretend this team is now an elite contender is madness and only possible if you deny the dark side and the reality of the scoreboard over the last decade.

- spatso


I would like to see the quotes of people mentioning Toronto as an "elite Contender"

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 8:41 AM ET
It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
- Doppleganger

Do you think that maybe forgoing the facts to call someone inferior might make this statement a bit ironic?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 8:42 AM ET
I would like to see the quotes of people mentioning Toronto as an "elite Contender"
- senstroll

Never question St. Spasto.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 18 @ 8:58 AM ET
Do you think that maybe forgoing the facts to call someone inferior might make this statement a bit ironic?
- Feeling Glucky?



Which "facts" are you taking about?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 9:10 AM ET
Which "facts" are you taking about?
- Doppleganger

read the post. they're there.

which insults were you referring to?
muffin_man
Montreal Canadiens
Location: no problem, as s hole - Eric Engels, NY
Joined: 02.10.2007

Jul 18 @ 9:23 AM ET
I believe this is the point where a thread has devolved enough to be locked yes?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 18 @ 9:34 AM ET
read the post. they're there.

which insults were you referring to?

- Feeling Glucky?



Goddamn you're stupid.

It's just amazing, really.

I'm not even agreeing with the guy that says Kessel is a superstar... but if this is your argument...


wow.

Do you get help putting your socks on in the morning? Like, if the social workers weren't helping you, would you be wearing them on your hands instead?

Because we'd all benefit if that was the case.

- Feeling Glucky?



It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jul 18 @ 9:40 AM ET
I believe this is the point where a thread has devolved enough to be locked yes?
- muffin_man


No, its summer and slow we need this.

besides, spatso would just make another Turris thread anyways

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 9:45 AM ET
It is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
- Doppleganger

Bolded statement isn't an insult. Based on the fact that this isn't the comment you had quoted, it's just a statement of fact. People who can't follow simple lines of conversation, have trouble with logic, and willfully ignore facts are commonly called "stupid".

Bolded question is a sincere one. A simple yes or know would suffice.

Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jul 18 @ 9:47 AM ET
Bolded statement isn't an insult. Based on the fact that this isn't the comment you had quoted, it's just a statement of fact. People who can't follow simple lines of conversation, have trouble with logic, and willfully ignore facts are commonly called "stupid".

Bolded question is a sincere one. A simple yes or know would suffice.

- Feeling Glucky?



seeing how you can't, or won't produce the so called "facts" that you claim were left out, the obvious conclusion is that it is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 18 @ 9:49 AM ET
seeing how you can't, or won't produce the so called "facts" that you claim were left out, the obvious conclusion is that it is the tactic of the inferior man to make personal attacks rather than deal directly with the facts that have already been presented.
- Doppleganger


I bolded the facts for you.

doesn't change the fact that by your own logic, Kaberle is the superior player to Karlsson.


Spasto, as you well know, is not a Leafs fan, just a member of the "Senators Troll Squad", headed up by you.

citing a guy's stats after he's broken out, rather than letting his younger age stats hold him back isn't cherry picking either, it's taking a more accurate look at the player he currently is. Looking two seasons back is fairly common practice, to make sure you're not just looking at a lucky season, and aren't looking too far back at years that aren't relevant.


again, I wasn't arguing Kessel was a superstar. I was just pointing out how nauseatingly idiotic your argument was.

Funny how you say that pretty much every time I apply the logic you use against Leafs players against Sens players.

- Feeling Glucky?

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