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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 12:53 PM ET
Sometimes it is hard to convince someone who is intent in remaining unconvinced. Kessel is worth what the Leafs paid for him. Remember I really like Kessel the player, I hate the deal. If there are Leaf fans still content with what they got they are fools.

Dallas gave up Iginla to get Nieuwendyk. They won a Stanley Cup and Nieuwendyk was a really important part to that success. Many thought that Dallas won the deal. There is no doubt in my mind based on the last few seasons Toronto won the deal with Boston in the trade for Kessel. But, and it is a very large but, we will not know the full answer for several more years. I will say again I like Kessel, I hate the deal.

The Calgary one is really a lot more complex and requires that you bring J.Bo into the equation. The minute Calgary got J.Bo, Phaneuf became expendable. Perhaps Calgary moved the wrong guy. Nobody in Calgary seems to regret getting rid of Phaneuf and most people in Toronto seem content with the acquisition.

- spatso



You realize that makes absolutely 0 sense, right?
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 12:55 PM ET
I strongly object to the notion of steals. How can it be a steal to acquire a guy who plays in the AHL and one who is more often than not a healthy scratch?
- spatso

because they are high potential players who were acquired in deals that would have been fair even if they hadn't been included.

Aulie played very, very well in the NHL last season, btw, only reason he's a healthy scratch is because of steals like Liles for a 2nd and Gardiner+Lupul for Beauchemin.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 28 @ 12:59 PM ET


You realize that makes absolutely 0 sense, right?

- Schenn-Sational!


I am sorry if you cannot understand a compound value I fear I may not be able to help you. I suspect had I been a Dallas fan I could have loved Nieuwendyk and at the same time hated the deal (giving up Iginla). Think about that for awhile before you respond too quickly. I would apply the same kind of thinking to the Kessel deal. It is okay to like the player but have the deal.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 1:02 PM ET
Sometimes it is hard to convince someone who is intent in remaining unconvinced. Kessel is worth what the Leafs paid for him. Remember I really like Kessel the player, I hate the deal. If there are Leaf fans still content with what they got they are fools.

Dallas gave up Iginla to get Nieuwendyk. They won a Stanley Cup and Nieuwendyk was a really important part to that success. Many thought that Dallas won the deal. There is no doubt in my mind based on the last few seasons Toronto won the deal with Boston in the trade for Kessel. But, and it is a very large but, we will not know the full answer for several more years. I will say again I like Kessel, I hate the deal.

The Calgary one is really a lot more complex and requires that you bring J.Bo into the equation. The minute Calgary got J.Bo, Phaneuf became expendable. Perhaps Calgary moved the wrong guy. Nobody in Calgary seems to regret getting rid of Phaneuf and most people in Toronto seem content with the acquisition.

- spatso



Oh, and the only reason that the Calgary deal looks complex to you is because you are making it so. J.Bo didn't make Phaneuf expendable, they brought in Bouwmeester to play with Phaneuf. Sutter said he wanted to build around a strong defense corps.

Maybe few will admit to missing Phaneuf, but if you asked them if they wanted a d-man with strong leadership skills, high offensive skills, shut-down defensive skills, and the ability to strike fear into other teams through physicality, at age 26... you'd better believe every single one would say yes.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 1:06 PM ET
I am sorry if you cannot understand a compound value I fear I may not be able to help you. I suspect had I been a Dallas fan I could have loved Nieuwendyk and at the same time hated the deal (giving up Iginla). Think about that for awhile before you respond too quickly. I would apply the same kind of thinking to the Kessel deal. It is okay to like the player but have the deal.
- spatso


I like what we got in the deal, but admit we lost that deal when Boston won the cup. The actual players given up have yet to prove that they are better than Kessel. Being content with getting a guy who's currently tearing up the league, and is still years away from his prime is in no way foolish, even if you don't like what was given up.


edit: I'd also like to know what you mean by a compound value.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 28 @ 1:11 PM ET
I like what we got in the deal, but admit we lost that deal when Boston won the cup. The actual players given up have yet to prove that they are better than Kessel. Being content with getting a guy who's currently tearing up the league, and is still years away from his prime is in no way foolish, even if you don't like what was given up.
- Schenn-Sational!


I wouldn't say that determining a "winner" of a trade is based directly on a player(s) to player(s) comparison.

I would suggest it how the player(s) make their respective teams better than the other team(s) involved in the trade.

As of today, the Bruins won the trade by virtue of winning the Cup last spring, but if Kessel helps the leafs win the Cup during his tenure with the leafs, then things even up.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 1:25 PM ET
I wouldn't say that determining a "winner" of a trade is based directly on a player(s) to player(s) comparison.

I would suggest it how the player(s) make their respective teams better than the other team(s) involved in the trade.


As of today, the Bruins won the trade by virtue of winning the Cup last spring, but if Kessel helps the leafs win the Cup during his tenure with the leafs, then things even up.

- Doppleganger

So, with Lupul coming in and really helping Kessel break out, and Gardiner making the team on his first try, pushing two guys with previous NHL experience out of the line-up, making the Leafs defense far more mobile, and the team currently in the top-5, while Anaheim is 10th?

And the Phaneuf trade? When he's been on the roster, the Leafs have had a winning record, how have the Flames fared since trading Dion away?

How have Lebda and Slaney helped the Preds?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 28 @ 1:31 PM ET
So, with Lupul coming in and really helping Kessel break out, and Gardiner making the team on his first try, pushing two guys with previous NHL experience out of the line-up, making the Leafs defense far more mobile, and the team currently in the top-5, while Anaheim is 10th?

And the Phaneuf trade? When he's been on the roster, the Leafs have had a winning record, how have the Flames fared since trading Dion away?

How have Lebda and Slaney helped the Preds?

- Schenn-Sational!


I'm speaking mostly in respect to the Kessel trade. That trade Boston won because they have won the Cup.

Was it solely the result of the Kessel trade? No, but is was part of a strategy that the GM took, to put the pieces together to achieve the ultimate goal, the Cup.

One could say the the same thing in respect to how the leafs are playing so far this season, but until they win the Cup, Bruins fans hold the bragging rights for now.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 1:33 PM ET
I'm speaking mostly in respect to the Kessel trade. That trade Boston won because they have won the Cup.

Was it solely the result of the Kessel trade? No, but is was part of a strategy that the GM took, to put the pieces together to achieve the ultimate goal, the Cup.

One could say the the same thing in respect to how the leafs are playing so far this season, but until they win the Cup, Bruins fans hold the bragging rights for now.

- Doppleganger

Ok, but what about the other trades?
GuyLaDouche
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hockeybuzz is against breast e
Joined: 04.30.2011

Oct 28 @ 1:38 PM ET
Know whos been a steal for us? Corey (frank)ing Potter. Wow.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 28 @ 1:38 PM ET
I'm speaking mostly in respect to the Kessel trade. That trade Boston won because they have won the Cup.

Was it solely the result of the Kessel trade? No, but is was part of a strategy that the GM took, to put the pieces together to achieve the ultimate goal, the Cup.

One could say the the same thing in respect to how the leafs are playing so far this season, but until they win the Cup, Bruins fans hold the bragging rights for now.

- Doppleganger



What a stupid argument.

They definitely lost that trade, because had they not traded him, they would have already won 2 cups. Therefore they lost a cup out of it, and lost the trade.

Thanks.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 28 @ 1:39 PM ET
Ok, but what about the other trades?
- Schenn-Sational!


Different pieces (of the puzzle) from different teams. If those players acquired from other teams gel and the leafs are marching down Yonge street in June, then leaf fans can brag about how they "won" those trades involving players for those teams.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 28 @ 1:53 PM ET
I'm speaking mostly in respect to the Kessel trade. That trade Boston won because they have won the Cup.

Was it solely the result of the Kessel trade? No, but is was part of a strategy that the GM took, to put the pieces together to achieve the ultimate goal, the Cup.

One could say the the same thing in respect to how the leafs are playing so far this season, but until they win the Cup, Bruins fans hold the bragging rights for now.

- Doppleganger


So technically any team that traded with Boston last year lost, correct?

This was a really stupid point as jsut because a team wont he cup and a player made a minor contribution that was involved in the trade, does not mean that the result ofthe trade should be determined on that. If Seguin, hamilton, or Knight provide a significant benefit to the team and are somewhat of a piece tht results in them winning the cup in the future, then sure, you can try to argue this point.

Based on your logic though, if the leafs had traded Jeff Finger to Boston and received a 1st rounder for him, since Boston won the cup, they won the trade because they reached the ultimate goal, regardless of finger's contributions.

understand what I'm saying?

Obviously not because you don't actually read our posts anyways
p_zub
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 02.20.2007

Oct 28 @ 2:26 PM ET
Short term Kessel has proved to be worth more than the cost. But long term, most hockey fans will probably think it is too much.
- spatso



I like your lack of use of definitives to confirm that you're currently losing your argument, but hope to high hell you won't later.
senstroll
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 28 @ 3:02 PM ET
So technically any team that traded with Boston last year lost, correct?

This was a really stupid point as jsut because a team wont he cup and a player made a minor contribution that was involved in the trade, does not mean that the result ofthe trade should be determined on that. If Seguin, hamilton, or Knight provide a significant benefit to the team and are somewhat of a piece tht results in them winning the cup in the future, then sure, you can try to argue this point.

Based on your logic though, if the leafs had traded Jeff Finger to Boston and received a 1st rounder for him, since Boston won the cup, they won the trade because they reached the ultimate goal, regardless of finger's contributions.

understand what I'm saying?

Obviously not because you don't actually read our posts anyways

- mfreedman


that pretty much sums it up, its a silly statement and Hodge is a twit if he thinks that.

Now if the statement was Boston won the deal because they managed to trade a star player, win a cup and restock their prospect pool for the future I would agree
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 28 @ 3:05 PM ET
Different pieces (of the puzzle) from different teams. If those players acquired from other teams gel and the leafs are marching down Yonge street in June, then leaf fans can brag about how they "won" those trades involving players for those teams.
- Doppleganger

so, the only way to win a trade is if you win the cup?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 28 @ 3:11 PM ET
so, the only way to win a trade is if you win the cup?
- Schenn-Sational!



No, but if you trade with a team that wins the cup after that, you've automatically lost. What I would like to know is, if a team trades a player, then wins a cup, then the other team wins a cup the next year, who wins the trade?

How about a team trades player A for player B, then wins the cup. Player C is then traded back to the other team for Player A, and then the other team wins the cup, which trade was a win, and which was a loss?

This is very confusing.
senstroll
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 28 @ 3:30 PM ET
No, but if you trade with a team that wins the cup after that, you've automatically lost. What I would like to know is, if a team trades a player, then wins a cup, then the other team wins a cup the next year, who wins the trade?

How about a team trades player A for player B, then wins the cup. Player C is then traded back to the other team for Player A, and then the other team wins the cup, which trade was a win, and which was a loss?

This is very confusing.

- prock


this def requires a flow chart to understand
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 28 @ 3:37 PM ET
Here is the problem in the extreme. It is no secret that Kessel does not like Wilson and his relationship with the Leafs has not been entirely smooth. For the sake of argument we know the clock is already ticking on Kessel becoming a free agent. He does not seem to have a high degree of buy in to the Leaf agenda. How do you evaluate the trade if he makes it known that he plans to test the market?
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 28 @ 3:47 PM ET
Here is the problem in the extreme. It is no secret that Kessel does not like Wilson and his relationship with the Leafs has not been entirely smooth. For the sake of argument we know the clock is already ticking on Kessel becoming a free agent. He does not seem to have a high degree of buy in to the Leaf agenda. How do you evaluate the trade if he makes it known that he plans to test the market?
- spatso


Do you just pull things randomly out of your ass or are they neatly arranged in files?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 28 @ 3:56 PM ET
Do you just pull things randomly out of your ass or are they neatly arranged in files?
- mfreedman



Bit of both. He has filing cabinets up his ass.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 28 @ 3:58 PM ET
Bit of both. He has filing cabinets up his ass.
- prock


How can you be a fan of a team when every comment you make seems to be a very weak effort at trying to find absolutely anything possible to bring the team down?

It makes no sense!

Unless of course... He ISNT a leaf fan

I know, I know... No one is shocked
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 28 @ 3:59 PM ET
How can you be a fan of a team when every comment you make seems to be a very weak effort at trying to find absolutely anything possible to bring the team down?

It makes no sense!

Unless of course... He ISNT a leaf fan

I know, I know... No one is shocked

- mfreedman



He's a Sens fan. He's been doing this for years. I can't understand why someone would bother.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 28 @ 4:05 PM ET
Do you just pull things randomly out of your ass or are they neatly arranged in files?
- mfreedman


I know something about markets. It is all about setting value. The mistake that people make is they just assume that all the variables of any deal always fall in favor of the side of the deal they support. It is a pretty standard way of thinking for most people. But, market analysis requires that you look at best case and worst case scenarios before you pull the trigger on a deal.

So, it is easy enough to conjure up a series of worst case scenario in respect of Kessel.
He signed a five year deal with the Leafs. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that he is discouraged by his relationship with Leaf coaches and management in year four and decides he wants to do a Sundin and test free agency. So, he looks around and after considering all the offers he decides to accept the deal to play for the Bruins.

I don't think that is going to happen. But, it should have been part of the analysis by Leaf management when they did the deal originally. It seems to me they would have been wise to have gottern a few more years on that contract. Five years does not seem very long when you consider what the Leafs gave up.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Oct 28 @ 4:10 PM ET
Do you just pull things randomly out of your ass or are they neatly arranged in files?
- mfreedman


What you need to realize is that spatso is the kind of person that speaks alot without saying anything. Once you realize that you can just kind of gloss over his posts.
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