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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:32 PM ET
Interesting. Edmonton's offense is putting the puck in the net at a lower rate than every other team in the league.

They must be crap.

- prock


about as crappy as toronto's defense so far.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:41 PM ET
Can you imagine when the offense starts clicking?
- gretzky



And the defense falls apart?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:43 PM ET
about as crappy as toronto's defense so far.
- sens rock


at least.... with Gustavsson in net.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:48 PM ET
at least.... with Gustavsson in net.
- prock


ya, pretty big difference between the two. and with that pk. do you know the pk% differences?

edit: aside from reimers opening game shutout he has a 3.11 gaa and .889 sv%.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:49 PM ET
Interesting. Edmonton's offense is putting the puck in the net at a lower rate than every other team in the league.

They must be crap.

- prock

I'll agree with that with an addendum:

Washington, the top scoring team in the league, has 10 goals from their top 6 in 7 games (1.4 G/G)

Edmonton's top 6 has 13 goals in 8 games (1.625 G/G).

If our bottom six and defense could generate even half of what our top 6 is, we'd be middle of the pack.

So yeah, our bottom 6 and defensive scoring has been crap, while our top 6 has been at least on par with the league's best.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 3:50 PM ET
Can you imagine when the offense starts clicking?
- gretzky


heard on tsn2 that with whitney in the lineup last year they were almost a .500 team.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 26 @ 3:53 PM ET
I was not ignoring the other players I was just using the players who fell into a similar position, age and story profile. All of them are fine in their own right. But you are repeating the point that I am making. What is the purpose of loading up on the guys who cannot make their original teams?
- spatso

Who said those guys couldn't make their teams? They hadn't at that point, but players are always growing, and team needs vary. For example, Zibanejad didn't end up sticking with the sens, with one of the most abysmal forward groups in the league. If the Leafs acquired him for a 3rd round pick, would that be a bad move?

Was Ottawa acquiring Filatov a bad move?
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 26 @ 3:56 PM ET
Exactly! Would the Senators have not been in better shape long term if they had taken Tarasenko? Filatov is a bit of a different twist. I have no idea why Columbus would offer him up for a 3rd pick. Given the fact that the Senators had so many early round picks it was probably a no brainer and he has looked pretty good so far. But it is not the kind of deal that makes a lot of sense. Teams should avoid trying to take on other teams problems.
- spatso

By your own logic, Columbus offered him up for a 3rd because he's crap.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 4:04 PM ET
ya, pretty big difference between the two. and with that pk. do you know the pk% differences?

edit: aside from reimers opening game shutout he has a 3.11 gaa and .889 sv%.

- sens rock



No, not sure.

The difference is also partly a factor of Reimer playing bottom teams, while Gustavsson having the luck of facing Boston and Philly.
p_zub
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 02.20.2007

Oct 26 @ 4:40 PM ET
ya, pretty big difference between the two. and with that pk. do you know the pk% differences?

edit: aside from reimers opening game shutout he has a 3.11 gaa and .889 sv%.

- sens rock


But you can't pick and choose which games you include in a particular stat. How about if we took away his worst game (against Ottawa) as well? That's how you're supposed to do it statistically...take out the outliers. In which case, he GAA is 2.62 and his SV% is 0.905. Not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be.

Edit: If you take out just his worst game, his SV% is 0.929 and his GAA is 2.03. By taking one game out, you can make him look like a star, or a Toskala. The reality is, he's been average overall, good when needed to be in order to get a 4-0-1 record.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 4:45 PM ET
But you can't pick and choose which games you include in a particular stat. How about if we took away his worst game (against Ottawa) as well? That's how you're supposed to do it statistically...take out the outliers. In which case, he GAA is 2.62 and his SV% is 0.905. Not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be.
- p_zub


stats are skewed early in the season. if he continues to play at the rate he has the last 4 games then that shutout will "work itself out"
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 26 @ 4:46 PM ET
Kadri is a work in progress. Colborne is a good example of a team deciding to let him go. Boston is very good at developing their prospects. When they move prospects taken lower in the draft ahead of Colborne it should mean something. The same with Franson, Gardiner and Aulie. When teams let prospects go it means something. Don't want to knock any of the kids. But you need to know that their original teams found something missing in their games. All of them could be good NHL players one day, My problem is when the kool-aid drinkers insist that Blowhard has hit a home run and he stole these superior talents from unsuspecting GMs of the other teams. I don't believe the other guys are so dumb and, I certainly don't think Blowhard is that smart.
- spatso


So Boston saw something wrong in Colborne and decided to let him go... it was a bonus they got Kaberle then... It wasnt that Burke wanted a big young Center for Kaberle... probably insisted on it. And then managed to trade the pick for pretty much the same player in JML to replace Kaberle... some forward thinking by Burke no?

There are kool aid drinkers and people like you, unable to give an ounce of credit, your hate blinds you from seeing things rationally also. It wasnt Burke making a good deal for the leafs it was Boston giving up on a player... noted.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 26 @ 4:53 PM ET
So Boston saw something wrong in Colborne and decided to let him go... it was a bonus they got Kaberle then... It wasnt that Burke wanted a big young Center for Kaberle... probably insisted on it. And then managed to trade the pick for pretty much the same player in JML to replace Kaberle... some forward thinking by Burke no?

There are kool aid drinkers and people like you, unable to give an ounce of credit, your hate blinds you from seeing things rationally also. It wasnt Burke making a good deal for the leafs it was Boston giving up on a player... noted.

- senstroll


You forgot to add that we also got Percy out of the trade. But the NHL probably gave up on him like Colborne.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 4:54 PM ET
stats are skewed early in the season. if he continues to play at the rate he has the last 4 games then that shutout will "work itself out"
- sens rock



If he continues to play at the rate he did last year, the game against Ottawa will "work itself out".
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Oct 26 @ 5:05 PM ET
stats are skewed early in the season. if he continues to play at the rate he has the last 4 games then that shutout will "work itself out"
- sens rock

If you are going to remove his best game you better remove his worst game to at least be somewhat fair.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Oct 26 @ 5:12 PM ET
Like Rundblad? Filatov?
- prock

Filatov yes ,runblad no
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 5:18 PM ET
Filatov yes ,runblad no
- top shelf 15



why not? Rundblad couldn't make the Blues?


This was the original statement:

Boston is very good at developing their prospects. When they move prospects taken lower in the draft ahead of Colborne it should mean something. The same with Franson, Gardiner and Aulie. When teams let prospects go it means something. Don't want to knock any of the kids. But you need to know that their original teams found something missing in their games.


How can this statement not apply to Rundblad. Clearly St. Louis found something missing in his game and decided to let him go.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Oct 26 @ 5:42 PM ET
why not? Rundblad couldn't make the Blues?


This was the original statement:



How can this statement not apply to Rundblad. Clearly St. Louis found something missing in his game and decided to let him go.

- prock

He just turned 19 ,thats the reason he didnt make the blues,wasnt ready for the nhl we wanted him the year he was drafted
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 26 @ 5:59 PM ET
I was not ignoring the other players I was just using the players who fell into a similar position, age and story profile. All of them are fine in their own right. But you are repeating the point that I am making. What is the purpose of loading up on the guys who cannot make their original teams?
- spatso



#1 Who?

#2 talent is talent. If you make a trade to acquire players that you believe have/will have more value than you are giving up, and/or can help your team immediately you make the deal.

If you are suggesting that they shouldn't have made a deal for Franson because they already have a glut of young Dmen and thus is not needed you are completely lost. Lebda and Slaney are a million times less needed. You make trades that make you better regardless of those things. If you have depth somewhere you can make a trade to shore up elsewhere.
p_zub
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 02.20.2007

Oct 26 @ 6:00 PM ET
If he continues to play at the rate he did last year, the game against Ottawa will "work itself out".
- prock


You see how this works? You can manipulate any stat to suit your argument. Just like saying Jared Cowen is on pace for 0 points and a -20 and is therefore the worst defenseman of his draft class.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 26 @ 6:02 PM ET
He just turned 19 ,thats the reason he didnt make the blues,wasnt ready for the nhl we wanted him the year he was drafted
- top shelf 15



Spatso said guys that couldn't make their NHL team. Gardiner doesnt' fall into that cagegory because prior to the trade he had never been to an NHL training camp. This year was the first time "tried" to make an NHL roster, and oddly enough he did just that.

Fail for spatso.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 26 @ 6:52 PM ET
He just turned 19 ,thats the reason he didnt make the blues,wasnt ready for the nhl we wanted him the year he was drafted
- top shelf 15


And st louis didn't because they saw holes in his game and he couldn't make the Blues.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 26 @ 7:25 PM ET
He just turned 19 ,thats the reason he didnt make the blues,wasnt ready for the nhl we wanted him the year he was drafted
- top shelf 15


Prock isn't being serious. Spatso made a very ignorant comment on the fact that if a team trades a prospect it says something about that prospect. In other words, they weren't cut out to make their initial team.

In this scenario, rundblad would fall into that category, along with a lot of other current and past super stars. Again, ignorant comment.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 7:19 AM ET
Prock isn't being serious. Spatso made a very ignorant comment on the fact that if a team trades a prospect it says something about that prospect. In other words, they weren't cut out to make their initial team.

In this scenario, rundblad would fall into that category, along with a lot of other current and past super stars. Again, ignorant comment.

- mfreedman


Clearly a distortion of the actual context of the exchange of information. The point was initially made about several transactions having been undertaken (eg. Franson, Aulie and Gardiner). My point was simple and clear. Specifically, when a team takes on a group of young players that other teams have decided are expendable it provides at least a notional insight into the quality and depth of a teams talent.

Prock made a very astute observation that the comment about the Leaf prospects should apply equally to Filatov and Rundblad and I agreed with him. Filatov is easy, any team could have had him for a second round pick but there were no takers. Ottawa got him for a third round pick. It was a good deal for Ottawa not because Filatov is such a great talent but because Ottawa is very empty of up front talent.

The Runblad situation is a little different. They dealt for Rundblad rather than take Tarasenko. Ottawa probably did this because they are so gun shy when it comes to taking Russians. As good as Runblad is and may be in the future Tarsenko is a future super star. If Prock asks the question again in five years I am sure everyone will agree that Ottawa should have stuck with the order of things and taken Tarasenko.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 7:25 AM ET
Clearly a distortion of the actual context of the exchange of information. The point was initially made about several transactions having been undertaken (eg. Franson, Aulie and Gardiner). My point was simple and clear. Specifically, when a team takes on a group of young players that other teams have decided are expendable it provides at least a notional insight into the quality and depth of a teams talent.

Prock made a very astute observation that the comment about the Leaf prospects should apply equally to Filatov and Rundblad and I agreed with him. Filatov is easy, any team could have had him for a second round pick but there were no takers. Ottawa got him for a third round pick. It was a good deal for Ottawa not because Filatov is such a great talent but because Ottawa is very empty of up front talent.

The Runblad situation is a little different. They dealt for Rundblad rather than take Tarasenko. Ottawa probably did this because they are so gun shy when it comes to taking Russians. As good as Runblad is and may be in the future Tarsenko is a future super star. If Prock asks the question again in five years I am sure everyone will agree that Ottawa should have stuck with the order of things and taken Tarasenko.

- spatso


And they deemed Rundblad expendable. They saw holes in his game.
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