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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 14 @ 2:31 AM ET
That's one difference. The bigger difference is that Alfie only had a few seasons at the top, production wise, while him, Spezza, and Heatley clicked. Sundin consistently put up points no matter who he was paired with, and actually very rarely had good linemates.
- prock



So I guess this is your basis for the player on a worst team being better than a player on a better team theory eh?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 14 @ 2:34 AM ET
I suppose it says a lot about someone, who would prefer to play for Ottawa over winning a cup. I think it says a lot about his priorities, and maybe a little about why Ottawa could never win a cup. It's obviously not his priority.
- prock


You mean when Sundin twice chose NOT to waive his NTC, and stay with the leafs and not move on for a chance to win a Cup at the deadline twice.
FirstClass
Anaheim Ducks
Joined: 03.06.2009

Oct 14 @ 4:49 AM ET
Leafs are clearly much better right now, sens are an awful team, don't wanna hear their fans homer up the "youth" can't be very good when you suck every game
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 14 @ 9:22 AM ET
You mean when Sundin twice chose NOT to waive his NTC, and stay with the leafs and not move on for a chance to win a Cup at the deadline twice.
- Doppleganger


I am not sure why prock amde this point. Loyalty is a good thing. Very stupid argument.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 10:47 AM ET
I am not sure why prock amde this point. Loyalty is a good thing. Very stupid argument.
- mfreedman


I was actually just playing a little devil's advocate on Sens homer Spatso and his love for Alfredsson. That said, there is a bit of a difference between Sundin and Alfredsson's situation. Sundin and the others said they thought their team could contend, and weren't ready to give up. Silly or not, they were a borderline playoff team. Surely, Alfredsson can't reasonably make this claim. The Sens are a basement team, and don't stand a hope in hell in even making the playoffs. They've got what is quite possibly the worst roster in the league.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 14 @ 3:56 PM ET
I was actually just playing a little devil's advocate on Sens homer Spatso and his love for Alfredsson. That said, there is a bit of a difference between Sundin and Alfredsson's situation. Sundin and the others said they thought their team could contend, and weren't ready to give up. Silly or not, they were a borderline playoff team. Surely, Alfredsson can't reasonably make this claim. The Sens are a basement team, and don't stand a hope in hell in even making the playoffs. They've got what is quite possibly the worst roster in the league.
- prock


I agree that this is the case, but why is it a bad thing that a player feels that he should help the team that has given him his career any and every way he can?

He stated already that he is not looking for a trade, but if the management feels it is in the best interest of the team, he would consider it. Seems fairly reasonable to me
sniper12
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Canada, ON
Joined: 09.27.2006

Oct 14 @ 4:10 PM ET
Alfredsson has a Cup Finals and a Calder trophy, Sundin neither.
- Doppleganger



Sundin did captain his team to something, something some players value even more than the stanley cup, and it was against the worlds greatest players
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 4:11 PM ET
I agree that this is the case, but why is it a bad thing that a player feels that he should help the team that has given him his career any and every way he can?

He stated already that he is not looking for a trade, but if the management feels it is in the best interest of the team, he would consider it. Seems fairly reasonable to me

- mfreedman

As I said, I don't necessarily think it is, and was just playing some devil's advocate. It would be a tough decision.... Leaving a team, and your home, that you've been with for so many years, in order to win, if you know you have no chance of winning where you are. I can see points in both directions.... If he stays with his team, it's loyal, but not indicative of the fire in a true competitor that wants to win a cup, especially that late in his career. On the flipside, leaving is abandoning the team that's supported you for so many years. It's nice to have some loyalty to a team, which is so rare these days.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 14 @ 4:17 PM ET
As I said, I don't necessarily think it is, and was just playing some devil's advocate. It would be a tough decision.... Leaving a team, and your home, that you've been with for so many years, in order to win, if you know you have no chance of winning where you are. I can see points in both directions.... If he stays with his team, it's loyal, but not indicative of the fire in a true competitor that wants to win a cup, especially that late in his career. On the flipside, leaving is abandoning the team that's supported you for so many years. It's nice to have some loyalty to a team, which is so rare these days.
- prock


Personally I don't consider a player a true competitor just because he wants to win a cup.

This is one of the reasons I wouldn't want a player like Hossa anywhere near my team. He gets to the stanley cup finals with a team and then leaves to the team that beat them? Absolutely disgusting player, I wish he went his whole career without a cup.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 4:33 PM ET
Personally I don't consider a player a true competitor just because he wants to win a cup.

This is one of the reasons I wouldn't want a player like Hossa anywhere near my team. He gets to the stanley cup finals with a team and then leaves to the team that beat them? Absolutely disgusting player, I wish he went his whole career without a cup.

- mfreedman



tell me how you really feel.

Well, hey, it may not make him a true competitor on it's own, but do you feel an NHL player who doesn't have winning the cup at or near the top of his priorities is a true competitor?
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 14 @ 4:53 PM ET
tell me how you really feel.

Well, hey, it may not make him a true competitor on it's own, but do you feel an NHL player who doesn't have winning the cup at or near the top of his priorities is a true competitor?

- prock


I agree that a team should want to win the cup, but are you telling me that a guy who spent 10 years with a team, and finally won it, is going to feel as good about winning it as a guy who played for 10 years with a team, then got traded to a new team at the deadline and won a cup (i.e. Kaberle). I'm sure it meant a lot, but you could tell he really wanted to win with the Leafs.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 4:56 PM ET
I agree that a team should want to win the cup, but are you telling me that a guy who spent 10 years with a team, and finally won it, is going to feel as good about winning it as a guy who played for 10 years with a team, then got traded to a new team at the deadline and won a cup (i.e. Kaberle). I'm sure it meant a lot, but you could tell he really wanted to win with the Leafs.
- mfreedman



No, of course you want to win it with the team you've played with all along.

That's not my point. That's impossible. I think that's pretty clear. It would be an absolute miracle if the Sens make the playoffs in the next couple of seasons. Alfredsson will not win a cup with them, that is sure.

So, now that we know it's not going to happen, do you want the guy just happy to play out his days on a basement team, or does it say something about him that he really doesn't value winning the big prize over that. Doesn't that, at least a little bit, make you question his motivations? Don't you wonder how high on his list of priorities winning a cup is?
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 5:16 PM ET
No, of course you want to win it with the team you've played with all along.

That's not my point. That's impossible. I think that's pretty clear. It would be an absolute miracle if the Sens make the playoffs in the next couple of seasons. Alfredsson will not win a cup with them, that is sure.

So, now that we know it's not going to happen, do you want the guy just happy to play out his days on a basement team, or does it say something about him that he really doesn't value winning the big prize over that. Doesn't that, at least a little bit, make you question his motivations? Don't you wonder how high on his list of priorities winning a cup is?

- prock


you have to think that some reasoning behind his answers so far are that players rarely say they want to move to another team. especially at the beginning of the season. i think over the course of the season, alfredssons tune will change as he knows the teams that are contenders and ottawa interest in the offers that are presented to him.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 5:19 PM ET
you have to think that some reasoning behind his answers so far are that players rarely say they want to move to another team. especially at the beginning of the season.

- sens rock

100% true.

i think over the course of the season, alfredssons tune will change as he knows the teams that are contenders and ottawa interest in the offers that are presented to him.

- sens rock


Maybe, we'll see. Maybe he has his Ray Bourque moment after all.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 14 @ 5:29 PM ET
100% true.


Maybe, we'll see. Maybe he has his Ray Bourque moment after all.

- prock


i think he definitely has the desire to win. he's won at other levels, and knows the highs of going to a finals. i think his struggle right now his having that conversation with murray and melnyk letting them know he wants to leave after they have given so much to him. and the fan aspect as well. he is revered in the city as the greatest senator ever, and he knows it.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 14 @ 6:55 PM ET
sens...because they have a good core signed longterm while the leafs barely have anything
- Paul99

*snickers*
FirstClass
Anaheim Ducks
Joined: 03.06.2009

Oct 14 @ 11:49 PM ET
relying purely on prospects is risky, Ottawa fans think they have an amazing future, well Florida fans thought they have for 10 years, i question the true nhl impact of some of their defensemen. Karlsson is a great PP Dman, but his d game needs alot of work. as of now the leafs are competitive, and thus in a better situation
GuyLaDouche
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hockeybuzz is against breast e
Joined: 04.30.2011

Oct 16 @ 1:18 PM ET
relying purely on prospects is risky, Ottawa fans think they have an amazing future, well Florida fans thought they have for 10 years, i question the true nhl impact of some of their defensemen. Karlsson is a great PP Dman, but his d game needs alot of work. as of now the leafs are competitive, and thus in a better situation
- FirstClass

Florida has fans???
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Oct 16 @ 2:55 PM ET
relying purely on prospects is risky, Ottawa fans think they have an amazing future, well Florida fans thought they have for 10 years, i question the true nhl impact of some of their defensemen. Karlsson is a great PP Dman, but his d game needs alot of work. as of now the leafs are competitive, and thus in a better situation
- FirstClass

Did you watch him against ov last night ,his defense takes too much flak .Cowen looks good and rundblad as well .I would say we are fine moving forward on the defense .Now we just have to allow time for our forwards to develop
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 16 @ 3:08 PM ET
Did you watch him against ov last night ,his defense takes too much flak .Cowen looks good and rundblad as well .I would say we are fine moving forward on the defense .Now we just have to allow time for our forwards to develop
- top shelf 15



The Sens have the most goals against in the entire league. There isn't a whole lot of defense being played by them at all.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Oct 16 @ 3:12 PM ET
The Sens have the most goals against in the entire league. There isn't a whole lot of defense being played by them at all.
- prock

True but when you 4 defensemen in your top 6 with 3 or less years experience,two of whom are first year players this tends happen
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 16 @ 4:07 PM ET
The Sens have the most goals against in the entire league. There isn't a whole lot of defense being played by them at all.
- prock



30th in GA/G at 4.6 and tied for 3rd in PP% at 30%.............weird eh?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 25 @ 12:40 PM ET
oday with toronto playing at a .688 points percentage, and Ottawa playing at .375 .....Toronto has been winning points at nearly double the rate.. ...

It is clear Toronto is in a better situation.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 25 @ 12:41 PM ET
This is a joke. Good chance the Leafs will be even weaker next year than this year. I do like the direction they have taken and I think they are wise to rebuild. On the other hand, I think the Senators have made some very clever changes over the second half of the season and I think they will return next year as an elite team. I don't think anybody doubts that Ottawa will be much stronger in goal than they have ever been. They have played very good hockey since changing coaches. They will be a major force in the J.Bo sweepstakes and they will either sign him or make it very expensive for anyone else in the bidding. Ottawa can play head to head with any team in the league if they get the goaltending and an elite offensive D-man.
- spatso


prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 25 @ 12:43 PM ET
Eventually you'll realize the window for the sens is closed. I think sens fans will start to question the team by the end of next season. Another year of borderline playoff hockey and you'll realize the team needs 2 top Dmen, another top notch center, and maybe a goalie, to compete with teams like Pitt and Philly (all the top teams have at least 2 A list centers and an A list Dman.). The sens don't have the cap room to sign them, and aren't getting high enough draft picks to draft them. They're stuck in the limbo region of borderline playoffs that the leafs were stuck in for years after the lockout.

Do you think they'll be competitive for the best in the East next year? No way. How old is Alfie in 2 years? He won't be a cornerstone piece anymore soon enough. If you can even still call him that now. He's heavily on the decline.

- prock


Wow this was incredibly bang on.
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