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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 8 @ 7:34 PM ET
You called it...........the Senators locked up 5th place in the Conference.

On the other hand, Burke traded away three valuable draft picks, and Ottawa has landed a Hobey Baker finalist.

Clouston arguably is better than Wilson.

- Doppleganger


Are you really trying to brag about NCAA pickups to a Leafs fan? I'm pretty happy with Bozak and Hanson as free agents. And Stalberg as a pick. Not to mention our 6th round pick just put up one point shy of a point per game in the NCAA as an 18 year old, while managing to be one of the top scorers in the World Juniors.

If you're going to talk about NCAA success, you might want to try another team. There hasn't been another team in the NHL that has done as well as the Leafs with NCAA players in the past year.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 9:53 PM ET
You called it...........the Senators locked up 5th place in the Conference.

On the other hand, Burke traded away three valuable draft picks, and Ottawa has landed a Hobey Baker finalist.

Clouston arguably is better than Wilson.

- Doppleganger


That Baker finalist is no Tyler Bozak.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 9:54 PM ET
Are you really trying to brag about NCAA pickups to a Leafs fan? I'm pretty happy with Bozak and Hanson as free agents. And Stalberg as a pick. Not to mention our 6th round pick just put up one point shy of a point per game in the NCAA as an 18 year old, while managing to be one of the top scorers in the World Juniors.

If you're going to talk about NCAA success, you might want to try another team. There hasn't been another team in the NHL that has done as well as the Leafs with NCAA players in the past year.

- prock


Yup+Gustavsson. The Leafs got 3 out of the 4 top players outside the NHL last season. It was a huge success.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 8 @ 10:22 PM ET
Yup+Gustavsson. The Leafs got 3 out of the 4 top players outside the NHL last season. It was a huge success.
- RogerRoeper


I also like the "Burke traded away three valuable draft picks" but no mention of Ottawa trading away a PPG winger in Heatley for a guy who's got ~25 goals and a pile of garbage.

Currently I don't think anyone would deny that the Sens are in a better position, but they aren't exactly favourites to win the Cup and they are getting older, eventually it's going to be about "which team has the better future." When it comes to that the Leafs have the youngest team in the league including: 22-year-old Kessel who is capable of 35+ goals a season, 24-year-old Bozak who was one of the highly sought-after NCAA free agents last year and has been proving why lately, 24-year-old Phaneuf who is two years removed from a Norris trophy nomination, 25-year-old Gustavsson who was one of the highly sought-after UFAs last season and has gotten better as the season progressed (i.e. after Giguere was brought in), 19-year-old Kadri who has been the hottest player in the OHL after a slow start and is by far dominating in the playoffs. Plus they also have guys like Schenn, Kulemin, Gunnarrson, etc.

The Sens have Karlsson.

So unless the Sens win the Cup soon (i.e. before Alfie retires) they are going to be heading south fast whereas the Leafs can only go up in the standings with a solid young core locked up for a number of years.

Young team on the rise > Old team on the decline. Trust a Leafs fan, we've been there.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 8 @ 10:30 PM ET
did you finish below last place last year? did the sens finish above 5th?

im just curious cause thats what your statement means and i dont see how it could be accurate

- muffin_man


In regards to the futures of the clubs. I put it pretty bluntly in there, not my fault if you have reading comprehension issues.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:40 PM ET
3 of the 4 top players that no one bothered to draft 2 seasons in a row. lets not exagerate
- muffin_man


Does the fact Bozak not being drafted matter much now?
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 8 @ 10:56 PM ET
where, may i ask, did i misunderstand? you called the leafs a team on the rise (they are worse than last year) and the sens a team on the decline (much better than last year)
- muffin_man


Currently I don't think anyone would deny that the Sens are in a better position, but they aren't exactly favourites to win the Cup and they are getting older, eventually it's going to be about "which team has the better future."

See, future means not the present. Not currently. It means "What has yet to happen." I specifically stated that the Sens are the better team this season. However, once this season is completed (i.e. the future) the Sens will be a team in decline and the Leafs will be a team on the rise. I'm not tying that specifically just to places in the standings, obviously the Leafs can only go up in the standings, but in their opportunity to put together a team that can go deep into the playoffs and, hopefully, win a Cup.

So, in the terms of which team has a brighter future (which, I'll remind you yet again, means seasons following the current one) I don't think it's a stretch by any means to say the youngest team in the league with a large number of their core players locked up for a number of years would be in a better position than an aging team that missed its opportunity. This isn't just a Leafs thing, it's a numbers thing.

Take 2006-2007 season as an example. In the East playoff teams included the Thrashers, Lightning and Islanders. Excluded the Caps, 'Canes, Habs, Bruins and Flyers. In the West playoff teams included Wild, Ducks, Stars and Flames. Excluded the 'Hawks, Avs, Kings and 'Yotes. These things are cyclical. Teams reach a peak (three years ago for the Sens), then decline. Might take them awhile before they completely fall off the map but it does happen. Conversely teams that are in a valley rise. The important thing is what they do when they are at their peak before they start to decline. The Sens couldn't get it done, my hope is that the Leafs will be able to...it's obviously years and years away before they reach their peak, but I'm willing to wait. And while the Leafs are at their peak the Sens will likely be in a valley at which point Sens fans can say they have a better future assuming they've stockpiled youth from drafting high and selling at the deadline, while the Leafs have traded youth away to attempt to keep at their peak.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 9 @ 9:23 AM ET
does the fact tavares wasnt in the NHL matter in a discussion of the most wanted players not in the nhl last summer?
- muffin_man

the fact that he wasn't available does.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 9 @ 10:03 AM ET
ah but that wasnt what was said

andrew, you (I assume) have the intellectual capacity to see that, since dopple was douche enough to bump this in my threads, I have not argued for or against either side, I have simply pointed out flaws in logic because im stuck with this thing coming up all the time and im bored. For the record, aside from in goal, I think the leafs do have a brighter future even though it would be MUCH brighter had burke not been an idiot re: the Kessel trade. but I dont actually care

- muffin_man

that's fine, I'm just pointing out that Tavares wasn't really an option and, technically, was part of the NHL fold, since he was drafted, while the others where not.


Also, I don't htink the Sens have a brighter future in net... Gustavsson has been phenomenal in the latter part of the season, despite his last performance... and we also have Reimer who's put up excellent numbers on a terrible Marlies team.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 9 @ 11:33 AM ET
does the fact tavares wasnt in the NHL matter in a discussion of the most wanted players not in the nhl last summer?
- muffin_man


Bozak wasn't drafted so he sucks, right? That worked before he had the highest PPG. of any rookie this season.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 9 @ 12:33 PM ET
I also like the "Burke traded away three valuable draft picks" but no mention of Ottawa trading away a PPG winger in Heatley for a guy who's got ~25 goals and a pile of garbage.

.

- Leafy_84



You have to admit that Heatley, demanding he be traded, handcuffed Murray and also his limiting of the teams acceptable to him also decreased the value of anything Murray would get in return, because the other GM's (on Heatley's list) were trading from a position of strength.

Murray parlayed park of that "forced" trade, into a trade deadline acquisition.

There was no way Murray was going to get equal value for Heatley, but are the Senators a better team now, than they were a year ago with Heatley who would not buy into the coach's system..............yes I believe so.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 9 @ 12:40 PM ET
You have to admit that Heatley, demanding he be traded, handcuffed Murray and also his limiting of the teams acceptable to him also decreased the value of anything Murray would get in return, because the other GM's (on Heatley's list) were trading from a position of strength.

Murray parlayed park of that "forced" trade, into a trade deadline acquisition.

There was no way Murray was going to get equal value for Heatley, but are the Senators a better team now, than they were a year ago with Heatley who would not buy into the coach's system..............yes I believe so.

- Doppleganger


I find it funny that the only way Murray could make his team better is being forced into it.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 9 @ 12:45 PM ET
I find it funny that the only way Murray could make his team better is being forced into it.
- prock


How many GM's do you know who would ask a two time 50 goal scorer, to waive his NTC???

Who knows............Murray may have explored trading Spezza as his NTC had not kicked in at the time Heatley demanded to be traded.

We'll never know.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 9 @ 12:46 PM ET
How many GM's do you know who would ask a two time 50 goal scorer, to waive his NTC???

Who knows............Murray may have explored trading Spezza as his NTC had not kicked in at the time Heatley demanded to be traded.

We'll never know.

- Doppleganger



Maybe he did try. I know he didn't succeed in improving his team without being forced to.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 9 @ 2:30 PM ET
I just know as a leafs fan i would rather

1. be in the playoffs right now than not
2. have their own draft picks and not kessel
3. be in the playoffs...fcuk me its been 6 years
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 9 @ 3:08 PM ET
You have to admit that Heatley, demanding he be traded, handcuffed Murray and also his limiting of the teams acceptable to him also decreased the value of anything Murray would get in return, because the other GM's (on Heatley's list) were trading from a position of strength.

Murray parlayed park of that "forced" trade, into a trade deadline acquisition.

There was no way Murray was going to get equal value for Heatley, but are the Senators a better team now, than they were a year ago with Heatley who would not buy into the coach's system..............yes I believe so.

- Doppleganger


I don't disagree with any of this, in fact at the time I was one of the few non-Sens fans saying that Murray had improved his team as much as possible from that trade (cap hit aside).

I'm just saying if you want to play the generic comment game it works both ways.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 9 @ 6:27 PM ET
you'll note i didnt say the sens have a brighter future in net

i said its the only area where the leafs dont have a vastly superior future in net. it was left ambiguous because i dont know whose future is brighter. Elliot has shown a great deal and gustavsson is a UFA though no?

- muffin_man

yea, Gus is a UFA, but chances of him leaving are slim to none
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 9 @ 6:44 PM ET
yea, Gus is a UFA, but chances of him leaving are slim to none
- Feeling Glucky?


Pretty sure he's an RFA and the Leafs have the option of a second year at his current contract. To invoke that would be a horrible idea as it would piss of Gustavsson but if he was being a female dog about it you could invoke it and trade him or something.

Personally I think he'll sign a two or three year deal. I don't think he's going to sign like a 5 year deal because 1) The Leafs don't know if he'll be good enough five years from now and 2) Gustavsson might be much much better in five years than he is now, so he could lose out on some money.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 9 @ 6:56 PM ET
Pretty sure he's an RFA and the Leafs have the option of a second year at his current contract. To invoke that would be a horrible idea as it would piss of Gustavsson but if he was being a female dog about it you could invoke it and trade him or something.

Personally I think he'll sign a two or three year deal. I don't think he's going to sign like a 5 year deal because 1) The Leafs don't know if he'll be good enough five years from now and 2) Gustavsson might be much much better in five years than he is now, so he could lose out on some money.

- Leafy_84

I don't think options are a part of the CBA any more... I think Sundin's was the last one because it was grandfathered in.

but yea, Gus is a RFA, not UFA
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 9 @ 6:57 PM ET
Pretty sure he's an RFA and the Leafs have the option of a second year at his current contract. To invoke that would be a horrible idea as it would piss of Gustavsson but if he was being a female dog about it you could invoke it and trade him or something.

Personally I think he'll sign a two or three year deal. I don't think he's going to sign like a 5 year deal because 1) The Leafs don't know if he'll be good enough five years from now and 2) Gustavsson might be much much better in five years than he is now, so he could lose out on some money.

- Leafy_84

I'm thinking 2 years at 2.5 each. That's what he could have been making this season if he had met his bonuses
TheTaoOfSemenko
Vegas Golden Knights
Joined: 07.01.2009

Apr 10 @ 1:36 AM ET
Maybe he did try. I know he didn't succeed in improving his team without being forced to.
- prock

daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: when it's a 3 taco-bell town, maybe they'll be ready, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Apr 10 @ 3:42 AM ET
I just know as a leafs fan i would rather

1. be in the playoffs right now than not
2. have their own draft picks and not kessel
3. be in the playoffs...fcuk me its been 6 years

- senstroll

That sums it up nicely to be honest.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 10 @ 5:05 PM ET
I don't think options are a part of the CBA any more... I think Sundin's was the last one because it was grandfathered in.

but yea, Gus is a RFA, not UFA

- Feeling Glucky?


Ah, fair enough.

But yeah, $2.5 per year for two years seems good for both parties.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 10 @ 5:22 PM ET
That sums it up nicely to be honest.
- daeth



It would if the discussion was about what we would have preferred over the last 5 seasons. But it was about going forward.

Honestly, I think the Sens are far better off going forward than they were about a year ago. Still not spectacular though. Not too many bad contracts (Spezza and maybe Cheechoo and Kovalev is starting to look bad, but the last 2 are only one more year), a couple of decent young players. Still a little weak in the prospect department, and their captain and best player is on his last legs. All said and done, could be worse, could be better.

The Leafs are kind of in a very different position... I see them as in a very high risk, high reward situation going forward. There are a lot of young guys with a lot of potential. I don't really see any guys that could end up as elite guys though. The most likely is probably Kadri, and I don't put that as high likelihood. If 3 or 4 of those guys (Caputi, Kadri, Stalberg, Bozak, Kulemin, Gunnarson, Aulie) really develop into something top notch, the Leafs could have a top team. But that's a lot to ask. If none of them do, the Leafs could see at least 3 or 4 more tough years.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 10 @ 6:06 PM ET
It would if the discussion was about what we would have preferred over the last 5 seasons. But it was about going forward.

Honestly, I think the Sens are far better off going forward than they were about a year ago. Still not spectacular though. Not too many bad contracts (Spezza and maybe Cheechoo and Kovalev is starting to look bad, but the last 2 are only one more year), a couple of decent young players. Still a little weak in the prospect department, and their captain and best player is on his last legs. All said and done, could be worse, could be better.

The Leafs are kind of in a very different position... I see them as in a very high risk, high reward situation going forward. There are a lot of young guys with a lot of potential. I don't really see any guys that could end up as elite guys though. The most likely is probably Kadri, and I don't put that as high likelihood. If 3 or 4 of those guys (Caputi, Kadri, Stalberg, Bozak, Kulemin, Gunnarson, Aulie) really develop into something top notch, the Leafs could have a top team. But that's a lot to ask. If none of them do, the Leafs could see at least 3 or 4 more tough years.

- prock

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