Lets say you are on a dating site. You favorite some gals, and then ask your top choice out. It does not work out. You then go to your second choice, and she turns out to be an amazing person.

Should you get some credit in picking the 2nd girl at all, out of hundreds? Nah. You didn't pick her first. Thus, it was all luck after that.


- PT21

Irrelevant and ill fitting analogy on many levels. For one, you're picking a "girl" in each round. Not picking one and then seeing it doesn't work out and then going for a second choice.

This is an awful analogy.

Just because a team picks a lesser player first doesn't mean they don't value the 2nd player they choose. Drafting is a science. Organizations have draft boards laid out for months. The idea that Tampa, or let's say the Red Wings, back in the day, continually lucked out on players they drafted is ridiculous.
- KGBflyers10

Here is the point. If their scouting truly was superior, why did they have the 3 players they picked ahead of Brayden Point ranked higher? Why didn't they take Brayden Point with their first pick? Clearly it's because they had no clue what kind of player Point was going to become.

I agree with what you say. I was just highlighting (or so I thought) the absurdity of MJL's logic.
- PT21

You failed miserably in pointing out the absurdity of my logic. You didn't even address the very facts that I laid out in coming to my point. There is no other conclusion that can be drawn from looking at both of those picks.

ISS, McKeen's, FC all had NP #1 or #2.

McKenzie's aggregate GM survey had Patrick at #2. Pronman and Button had NP at #2 as well.

Sportsnet had Patrick #1.

Eliteprospects are just some dudes who run a website. They don't do any active scouting on their own.
- Tomahawk

Exactly. McKenzie compiles a ranking based on talking to NHL scouts. His list less than a week before the draft, put Patrick at #2. His hockey sense was rated 5/5. Competitiveness 4.5/5. Skating 4/5. Puck skills 4/5. Scoring 4/5. His projection was a premier #1 center with a comparable to Eric Staal.

Here is the point. If their scouting truly was superior, why did they have the 3 players they picked ahead of Brayden Point ranked higher? Why didn't they take Brayden Point with their first pick? Clearly it's because they had no clue what kind of player Point was going to become.
- MJL

Well obviously they had some idea what kind of player he would be or else they wouldn't have drafted him. Come on now...

My reasons were specific and directly tied to Couturier. We know he is a good player. His value is high due to his performance and his friendly, for another year, cap hit.

Also, the Flyers missing the playoffs or losing in the 1st round 8 of the last 9 years is the issue. Couturiers's chemistry and 2-way status has not changed this.


- Captain_Ahab

This is not a good point. Generational players such as Connor McDavid cannot change the status of a team without the depth behind him.

If Couturier is as good as you say, then trading him can help address multiple problems with the Flyers roster. This can greatly change the team chemistry and turn the roster over as well as bring depth to a lineup that can use it. It also can help with cap space for future moves.


- Captain_Ahab

Can and may being the key words. It also may not. Trades often do not work out when trading top players.

The Flyers only have 2 younger players to hit the 20 goal mark. Konecny and Farabee. They also need help on defense. Moving Couturier can greatly help these areas.


- Captain_Ahab

He could but then who is the team's #1 center? Who is the glue player that helps aid in the development of the young players in the future? Who replaces what Couturier brings to the team?

The goal is not to hold onto to Couturier.

The goal is to improve the team.

Trading Couturier can do just that. That is why moving him, a soon and possibly big cap hit, is a serious consideration.
- Captain_Ahab

Trading Couturier can also greatly weaken the team. Here is what you're missing in my opinion. Just like in previous conversations when you named Stamkos and Lecavalier. You keep the high level players that you think are going to remain high level. You try and move the vets that aren't in your future. Couturier is the first category. You keep talking about chemistry. There is no better player on this team that builds chemistry. That will help the young players develop. It may be a consideration, but it is one that you should consider and unless someone completely blows you away with a deal, you should pass on trading him and re-sign him.

My reasons were specific and directly tied to Couturier. We know he is a good player. His value is high due to his performance and his friendly, for another year, cap hit.

Also, the Flyers missing the playoffs or losing in the 1st round 8 of the last 9 years is the issue. Couturiers's chemistry and 2-way status has not changed this.

If Couturier is as good as you say, then trading him can help address multiple problems with the Flyers roster. This can greatly change the team chemistry and turn the roster over as well as bring depth to a lineup that can use it. It also can help with cap space for future moves.

The Flyers only have 2 younger players to hit the 20 goal mark. Konecny and Farabee. They also need help on defense. Moving Couturier can greatly help these areas.

The goal is not to hold onto to Couturier.

The goal is to improve the team.

Trading Couturier can do just that. That is why moving him, a soon and possibly big cap hit, is a serious consideration.
- Captain_Ahab

I believe the trade Couturier argument was predicated on the fact that he'll be some over the hill player that wont be able to live up to his contract while he quickly declines early into it.

Hockeybuzz insider information. Fortuanatley for us, other teams do not know this so they will be willing to give us their quality forwards and/or top prospects/draft picks for said player in decline.

Anyone also care to elaborate on the haul for Couturier? We talkin 3 forwards, 2 forwards, 2 forwards and a D? The entire Ottawa Senators?

Either way hopefully these new guys can get lindblom, patrick, konecny, Sanheim, Myers, Hart to play better. Cause we all know these damn vets were holding them back.

And Stamkos hit the 40 goal mark 5 times. Including a 60 goal season.

Giroux hit the 30 goal mark once.
- Captain_Ahab

Stamkos has never scored 100 points in a season. Giroux has. Two different kinds of players. One is more of a goal scorer. The other more of playmaker.

Just like Detroits scouting department. 'We know this Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Datsyuk guys are going to be HOFer's, but lets wait until the 6th round to draft them...
- flyer4ever75

Yup, followed by a largely dry decade after that run.

Horrendous gaffe by Flower. So far, it is going ok for you, but I thought the bet was Habs win you win else me. I stand by VGK.
.
- PT21

There was no bet. Tomahawk made a simple statement of as well as Price is playing, they have as good of a chance as anyone. He is right about that.

Well obviously they had some idea what kind of player he would be or else they wouldn't have drafted him. Come on now...
- KGBflyers10

I've given you irrefutable proof that they had no clue what kind of player Point was going to become. Come on now....

Irrelevant and ill fitting analogy on many levels. For one, you're picking a "girl" in each round. Not picking one and then seeing it doesn't work out and then going for a second choice.
- MJL

That is why I mentioned compiling a list of fave potential dates, ranked, even before the "tryouts." Think of those a priori ranks as equivalent to drafting rounds.

Point is (no pun intended), you chose the person, albeit not first, but you did choose the person when you could have chosen others. That is drafting acumen. Couple that with the fact that they have had a long list of such successes in late rounds: Kucherov, Point, Palat, Killorn, Cirelli...

The longer the list, the more the luck story bleeds credibility...

This is not a good point. Generational players such as Connor McDavid cannot change the status of a team without the depth behind him.



Can and may being the key words. It also may not. Trades often do not work out when trading top players.





He could but then who is the team's #1 center? Who is the glue player that helps aid in the development of the young players in the future? Who replaces what Couturier brings to the team?



Trading Couturier can also greatly weaken the team. Here is what you're missing in my opinion. Just like in previous conversations when you named Stamkos and Lecavalier. You keep the high level players that you think are going to remain high level. You try and move the vets that aren't in your future. Couturier is the first category. You keep talking about chemistry. There is no better player on this team that builds chemistry. That will help the young players develop. It may be a consideration, but it is one that you should consider and unless someone completely blows you away with a deal, you should pass on trading him and re-sign him.
- MJL

Are you talking about the guy they nicknamed "Dr. Couturier"? The one that helps struggling players? The guy 4 points shy of a ppg season?

There was no bet. Tomahawk made a simple statement of as well as Price is playing, they have as good of a chance as anyone. He is right about that.
- MJL

The bet was with BeeGeeBoy. With whom I was talking. Nothing to do with Tomahawk.

Or indeed, you.

A bit of Flyers draft trivia...
1. Anyone know..how many RHD have the Flyers drafted in the last ten years (2011 draft with Couturier through last year’s 2020 draft)?

2. Can you guess…how many combined NHL games those RHD have played to date?

3. Who is the highest drafted RHD taken by the Flyers during that 10-year window and in what round was he drafted?
- NC Flyers Fan

Answers:

1. Six. Attard, St. Ivany, Wylie, Friedman, Petterson , and Suellentrop
2. Only Mark Friedman-16 games played
3. Ronnie Attard drafted in 2019, 3rd round, 72nd overall

For comparison, the Flyers have drafted seventeen LHD during that same ten years (2011-2020) which included Hextall’s rebuild of the prospect farm. Those seventeen LHD have a combined 1,296 NHL games played to date.The highest drafted LHD during this 10-year window was Ivan Provorov, 1st round, 7th overall in 2015. A total four LHD were taken by the Flyers in first rounds and three in second rounds in those drafts.

LHD Flyers drafts 2011-2020–Andrae, York, Millman, Ginning, Kalynuk, Hogberg, Bernhardt, Provorov, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg, Amorosa, Drake, Gostisbehere, Larsson, Wilcox and Vasiliev

Yup, followed by a largely dry decade after that run.
- bmeltzer

The dryness judiciously exacerbated by management (who have studiously refrained from applying the emollient of UFA signings, max cap spendings, keeping all their good players, etc.)?

Unless Jones is singing an extension, which he already said he is not, how can any team give up good assets to acquire him? I think Columbus is stuck now at least until the trade deadline, where they can maybe pick up a number 1 pick and a prospect from a contending team that sees Jones as the guy to put them over the top. That won't be the Flyers this year unless Fletcher shocks the world with savey moves this off season. No, if the Flyers want Jones, I'd wait until FA next year. Take this year to right the ship so you can show Jones this is a destination where he can win a cup. Right now is not the time for Jones IMO.
- jd250

Hes has to say he wont sign, thats his leverage. Its flyers job to change his mind.

For further reference, there were seven RHD drafted by the Flyers in the preceding ten years (2001-2010). Likewise, none of those were chosen in the first or second rounds of the draft. The highest RHD pick in that window was R.J. Anderson, 4th round, 101st overall in 2004. Of those seven, none played any games in the NHL. In recent history, Friedman’s 16 games played stand as the only games played by a RHD drafted by the Flyers.

All of the RD playing in the last two NHL seasons were undrafted free agents or were drafted in 2000 or later. Among those undrafted RHD is Flyers defenseman Philippe Myers, signed in 2015 with 115 NHL games played to date. Noting Friedman (no longer with the Flyers) and Myers, there have only been eleven other RHD, acquired via free agency or trade to play for the Flyers in the last ten years. The only ones to play as many or more games with the Flyers then Myers are: Justin Braun (115), Luke Schenn (213) and Radko Gudas (290).

Across all teams, there have been 84 RHD drafted from 2011-20 who have debuted in the NHL. Those 84 RHD have played a total of 13,249 NHL games to date.

That is why I mentioned compiling a list of fave potential dates, ranked, even before the "tryouts." Think of those a priori ranks as equivalent to drafting rounds.

Point is (no pun intended), you chose the person, albeit not first, but you did choose the person when you could have chosen others. That is drafting acumen. Couple that with the fact that they have had a long list of such successes in late rounds: Kucherov, Point, Palat, Killorn, Cirelli...

The longer the list, the more the luck story bleeds credibility...
- PT21

You don't tryout one player at a time like you do one girl at a time. Well unless you're a "playa". You wont acknowledge or debate the actual facts that I brought up in coming up with my premise. You just look to deflect and make strawman arguments. Again the point is not that they didn't choose Point with a pick. It's that they had no clue what kind of player he was going to be. The context of the argument is that TB's scouting is superior and that's why they drafted Point. If we want to apply it to your absurd analogy, it's equal to the 5th girl on your list being the "one" and saying you knew it was going to be her all along. You just waited to choose her 5th for some reason.

You labeled my logic absurd while applying the only absurd logic involved.

Yup, followed by a largely dry decade after that run.
- bmeltzer

I mean that run did last for like 15 years though.

The bet was with BeeGeeBoy. With whom I was talking. Nothing to do with Tomahawk.

Or indeed, you.
- PT21

You absolutely challenged Tomahawk to a bet.

You don't tryout one player at a time like you do one girl at a time. You wont acknowledge or debate the actual facts that I brought up in coming up with my premise. You just look to deflect and make strawman arguments. Again the point is not that they didn't choose Point with a pick. It's that they had no clue what kind of player he was going to be. The context of the argument is that TB's scouting is superior and that's why they drafted Point. If we want to apply it to your absurd analogy, it's equal to the 5th girl on your list being the "one" and saying you knew it was going to be her all along. You just waited to choose her 5th for some reason.

You labeled my logic absurd while applying the only absurd logic involved.
- MJL

I don't know why you're so honed in on Point. The Lightning organization probably ranked him in the 2nd and third round, he was available at that time and they decided to pick him because they liked him. That's it.

This isn't a hard concept.

Horrendous gaffe by Flower. So far, it is going ok for you, but I thought the bet was Habs win you win else me. I stand by VGK.

Bolts-Isles is interestingly poised. Play has been fairly even, but Isles are struggling to score without pp and mistakes. If not for a horrible goal allowed by Vasilevsky and a brain fart by Cernak, it could easily be 3-0 Bolts. I expect Isles to open it up more. Apparently Wahlstrom is playing today and I expect their D to jump in more. Bottom line is, they have succeeded in getting TB to play their game, and they are down 1-2 to show for it. I would not be surprised if today there are a lot more goals and some fights.

Btw, Barzal is often the best forward on the ice, and Stamkos looks like a shell of his glory self.
- PT21

Yeah I can see habs series going either way. The swami said habs in 6. The pick hinges solely on one thing the swami said. If price plays.920save % or above they win series. Below and they lose. Swami said that price would be able to do it. So far that’s proven true in all 3 games. I’d be shocked if habs win a game with lower % or just as shocked if habs lose a game if above.


Isles don’t have enough high end talent to beat tb. They have gone as far as they can. Barzal may be dangerous and dominate but he’s no coots(sarcasm) isles playing as best they can and like you said have drawn tb into playing their game but it’s for naught. Lol

I don't know why you're so honed in on Point. The Lightning organization probably ranked him in the 2nd and third round, he was available at that time and they decided to pick him because they liked him. That's it.

This isn't a hard concept.
- KGBflyers10

I'm sure he was on their scouting list. I'm honed in on Point because he refutes your claim that the TB scouting is superior. I contend that they got extremely lucky with both Point and Kucherov. Even Palat. I believe he was a 7th round pick.

I'm not sure why this needs to be explained but apparently it does. You can look back at any pick in hindsight and rate the pick. Whether it turned out to be a good pick or a bad pick. Hell that's easy. However when looking at the pick and stating Hextall made a dumb pick and pick that had no justification for it, well that's revisionist history using the current fact that he hasn't worked that was unknown at the time. Pretty basic.
Hextall's drafting was strong. We'll see that in the coming seasons.
- MJL

I dont think it was strong and that has nothing to do with patrick. The reach and miss of Obrien still bugs me. Rubstov picks bothers me, however it was a weak draft. If you want to throw Patrick in there, then i really dont like Hextalls drafts. But you and i have been through all this before