FFS, the problem over the last decade hasn’t been G, Couts or Jake. Rather, it’s been the poop roster surrounding them compounded by inconsistent and often flat out poor goaltending and way too many years of Dave Hakstol being the head coach.

FFS, the problem over the last decade hasn’t been G, Couts or Jake. Rather, it’s been the poop roster surrounding them compounded by inconsistent and often flat out poor goaltending and way too many years of Dave Hakstol being the head coach.
- BiggE

Do you think the Flyers will be able to build a cup contending team while those 3 are still on the roster?

Agree.

The Flyers have reached the 2nd round only once in the last 9 years.

Giroux, Courturier, and Voracek have been here the entire 9 years.

It's time to move on. They are getting older. If they couldn't carry the team in their prime, then don't expect them to do so as older players.
- Captain_Ahab

It's not time to move on from every older player. Trading Couturier is a mistake.

FFS, the problem over the last decade hasn’t been G, Couts or Jake. Rather, it’s been the poop roster surrounding them compounded by inconsistent and often flat out poor goaltending and way too many years of Dave Hakstol being the head coach.
- BiggE

I hear you on that but Hakstol did a better job in a few of his seasons than the coaching staff did last season.

I hear you on that but Hakstol did a better job in a few of his seasons than the coaching staff did last season.
- MJL

Sadly, that’s a low bar

There are a lot of reasons why resigning Couturier can be a negative.

Let me preface this by saying I'm leaning towards trading him to help turn this roster over. His value is the highest it will ever be. Yet, with him, the Flyers have missed the playoffs or lost in the 1st round 8 of the last 9 seasons.

And....since bill spoke about Recchi today.....who did the Flyers get for trading Recchi? And did that trade help the FLyers?.......trades can be great and necessary for a team to change chemistry and turn the roster over, which this team desperately needs and is exactly what the Recchi trade did for the Flyers.

He will turn 30 in the 1st year of his new contract. 30 is not old. But it is not young either.

Wayne Simmonds was 29 when he lost a step his last year as a Flyer.

Vincent Lecavelier was 33 his 1st year as a Flyer and he clearly had lost a step.

Couturier has a lot of miles on him. 10 years and 692 games played.

He has played 70 games or more in 5 of 10 years(This past season he played 45 of 56 games. That's a pace to put him in the 60's games played again)

He is not known for being a naturally quick or fast skater. Players like that may have difficulty in their 30's as they lose a step.

Flyers have salary cap issues involving younger players needing to be resigned and to bring in Vets to help out the defense.

Yes, Couturier can be good for another 5 years. He also may struggle in a year or two since everyone ages differently.

We have not been winning with him and this team needs to turn the roster over and change chemistry. My vote is to trade him.

Also, the Flyers got Recchi by trading away Rick Tocchet. A fan favorite and Captain of the FLyers.

Fortune favors the bold. Go for it!
- Captain_Ahab

There are no guarantees. Positive or negative. Bringing up a few players who didn't age well and ignoring the examples of many players who did age well, does not support trading Couturier. Neither does bringing up an unrelated trade from the past. How did Buffalo fair in trading Ryan O'Reilly? There's another side of the street in the game you play here. Couturier is not a player you trade to change chemistry.

Sadly, that’s a low bar
- BiggE

It is but Hakstol got more out a few teams with far less talent than Vigneault had last year. There were extenuating circumstances of course but last year was one of the worst coached Flyers teams that I can remember.

There are no guarantees. Positive or negative. Bringing up a few players who didn't age well and ignoring the examples of many players who did age well, does not support trading Couturier. Neither does bringing up an unrelated trade from the past. How did Buffalo fair in trading Ryan O'Reilly? There's another side of the street in the game you play here. Couturier is not a player you trade to change chemistry.
- MJL

He is the type you trade to acquire assets to try to set yourself up to be a contender down the line. Cant continue to spin the hamster wheel.

Though you clearly feel they will be cup contender with Couturier.

They have had a bad roster because of expensive contracts.

It's difficult to improve the roster when the highest paid players are older players taking up so much cap space.

In fact, all of the most expensive contracts are players aged 29 and older.

Also, Giroux, Vorecek, and Couturier combined for 4 PPG's last season.

That's horrible.

And that terrible production on the power play has nothing to do with the rest of the roster as these older and expensive players are getting most of the power play time.

Do you think the Flyers will be able to build a cup contending team while those 3 are still on the roster?
- hello it's me 2050

I don’t think they will be able to build a Cup contender until a new management team is brought in. I have no faith in Chuck Fletcher as GM, hell if his dad wasn’t Cliff Fletcher, he probably never gets a job in the NHL. That aside, while he built a solid team in Minnesota, he was never able to make the moves to push the team to the next level. It takes aggressive moves to get a team to the very top and I just don’t see Fletcher as that type of GM. I hope I’m wrong.

Now as to your specific question. The best answer I can give is yes and no. I think Couts can be no worse than a top 6 center for at least another 5-6 years, so yeah, he could be part of a contending team a few years down the road.

G and Jake likely not, but G has an NMC and no one is trading you value for Jake so it is what it is for at least another season. Personally I’d let G walk after next year (if they have a poop season then hopefully he waives the NMC and agrees to be dealt to a contender) and at next years draft I’d actively and aggressively shop Jake and be willing to retain a decent chunk of his contract to get a deal done. But even then, depending on his 21-22 season, there might not be much interest.

It's not time to move on from every older player. Trading Couturier is a mistake.
- MJL

Trading Couturier is not a mistake.

Trading Couturier is not a mistake.
- hello it's me 2050

Hard to make that claim without knowing what is coming back in the deal. I’m open to trading pretty much any player over the age of 24, but it all depends on the return.

I don’t think they will be able to build a Cup contender until a new management team is brought in. I have no faith in Chuck Fletcher as GM, hell if his dad wasn’t Cliff Fletcher, he probably never gets a job in the NHL. That aside, while he built a solid team in Minnesota, he was never able to make the moves to push the team to the next level. It takes aggressive moves to get a team to the very top and I just don’t see Fletcher as that type of GM. I hope I’m wrong.

Now as to your specific question. The best answer I can give is yes and no. I think Couts can be no worse than a top 6 center for at least another 5-6 years, so yeah, he could be part of a contending team a few years down the road.

G and Jake likely not, but G has an NMC and no one is trading you value for Jake so it is what it is for at least another season. Personally I’d let G walk after next year (if they have a poop season then hopefully he waives the NMC and agrees to be dealt to a contender) and at next years draft I’d actively and aggressively shop Jake and be willing to retain a decent chunk of his contract to get a deal done. But even then, depending on his 21-22 season, there might not be much interest.
- BiggE

Fair enough. I don't think Couturier will be a top 6 center in 5-6 years. They will regret that 8 year minimum 8 million per before 5 years.

Too bad we don’t have that talent. Let’s play devils advocate and put Bergy between the flavor of the week of flyers top line. Exactly…. People complain to change the core of team … yes that’s needed but that’s not gonna do much. You still need to add to the real core of team which should be the youth. Coots at 29 getting 7 years is just flat out dumb. For example say he gets his payday (which he will) it’ll be 7/56 probably a little more. He’ll be turning 30 when contract starts. So in 3-4 years when the current youth plus others still coming by time they hopefully good enough to contend you got a 33-34 year 8+ mil aging definitely downside of career hindered contract. You can easily sign a vet for a few years at less money to play that role.
- Stayin alive

How old is Bergeron now?

FFS, the problem over the last decade hasn’t been G, Couts or Jake. Rather, it’s been the poop roster surrounding them compounded by inconsistent and often flat out poor goaltending and way too many years of Dave Hakstol being the head coach.
- BiggE

Shh don’t tell the truth around here

They have had a bad roster because of expensive contracts.

It's difficult to improve the roster when the highest paid players are older players taking up so much cap space.

In fact, all of the most expensive contracts are players aged 29 and older.

Also, Giroux, Vorecek, and Couturier combined for 4 PPG's last season.

That's horrible.

And that terrible production on the power play has nothing to do with the rest of the roster as these older and expensive players are getting most of the power play time.
- Captain_Ahab

It's not horrible. Giroux was 24 when he signed his contract. Were you against the contract at that time? Voracek was 25 when he signed his deal. Were you against the deal at that time? You need some veteran players on a team. Couturier is exactly the kind of player you re-sign to an extension. For many reasons.

Hard to make that claim without knowing what is coming back in the deal. I’m open to trading pretty much any player over the age of 24, but it all depends on the return.
- BiggE

Is it equally hard make the claim trading him is a mistake? Seeing what the last decade with him has brought.

Lets say for arguments sake the return players ended up busting. The team is stlll stuck in neutral much like the last 10+ years.

There comes a time when the page needs to be turned. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the player himself and his contributions. Time for a fresh start all around.

Loved the personal stories, Bill.

I've got a question. I watch plenty of hockey but never know what to make of rumors about leadership. We're not in the room.

That said, it was pretty clear what guys like Smith, Hatcher, and Timonen did to change underperforming Flyers squads by their leadership when they showed up. (And Pronger.)

With all the talk of Hamilton, Jones, Dumba and others, do any of you (and especially Bill who actually sees this stuff) know of any real leaders who could be available? One of those three? Ryan Ellis? Someone else?

It's not horrible. Giroux was 24 when he signed his contract. Were you against the contract at that time? Voracek was 25 when he signed his deal. Were you against the deal at that time? You need some veteran players on a team. Couturier is exactly the kind of player you re-sign to an extension. For many reasons.
- MJL

Couturier is exactly the kind of player you don't re-sign to an extension. For many reasons.

I don’t think they will be able to build a Cup contender until a new management team is brought in. I have no faith in Chuck Fletcher as GM, hell if his dad wasn’t Cliff Fletcher, he probably never gets a job in the NHL. That aside, while he built a solid team in Minnesota, he was never able to make the moves to push the team to the next level. It takes aggressive moves to get a team to the very top and I just don’t see Fletcher as that type of GM. I hope I’m wrong.

Now as to your specific question. The best answer I can give is yes and no. I think Couts can be no worse than a top 6 center for at least another 5-6 years, so yeah, he could be part of a contending team a few years down the road.

G and Jake likely not, but G has an NMC and no one is trading you value for Jake so it is what it is for at least another season. Personally I’d let G walk after next year (if they have a poop season then hopefully he waives the NMC and agrees to be dealt to a contender) and at next years draft I’d actively and aggressively shop Jake and be willing to retain a decent chunk of his contract to get a deal done. But even then, depending on his 21-22 season, there might not be much interest.
- BiggE

More so than a lack of faith in Fletcher for me, it's about the situation in the NHL. I think moves can be made to improve the team but I think anyone thinking that Fletcher is going to trade and sign away to get this team to true contention is going to be disappointed. I don't think the greatest GM of all time could pull that off due to the situation league wide.

What about signing & trading Coutourier and using the space created to sign Cale Makar?
-DrMidnight

No chance in getting the modern day Bobby Orr unfortunately, that hsip has sailed. If only Makar was there on the board when we drafted at number 2 in 2017 ... Oh Wait!

Couturier is exactly the kind of player you don't re-sign to an extension. For many reasons.
- hello it's me 2050

Huh? Wow ... the guy is a point of game center and one of the best 2 way centers in the game, routinely mentioned in the same class as Patrice Bergeron, but he is not the type of player we should re-sign??

Do you think the Flyers will be able to build a cup contending team while those 3 are still on the roster?
- hello it's me 2050

You can definitely contend with G and Couts on the team. The problem has been Hextall signing JVR to Fletcher signing Hayes, both to stupid contracts. These are not the FAs we needed. At this point the 3 vets that need to go are Jake, JVR and Ghost. This would free up $20M in cap space that you can use to build around G, Couts, Hayes, Farabee, Provorov, and Hart.

No chance in getting the modern day Bobby Orr unfortunately, that hsip has sailed. If only Makar was there on the board when we drafted at number 2 in 2017 ... Oh Wait!
- jd250

The revisionist history on that pick is becoming comical. The Flyers drafted the #1 ranked NA skater according to central scouting.

You can definitely contend with G and Couts on the team. The problem has been Hextall signing JVR to Fletcher signing Hayes, both to stupid contracts. These are not the FAs we needed. At this point the 3 vets that need to go are Jake, JVR and Ghost. This would free up $20M in cap space that you can use to build around G, Couts, Hayes, Farabee, Provorov, and Hart.
- jd250

What was your opinion of the Hayes signing when it was made? How did you feel about Hayes in the 19/20 season?