I’d take him over anyone on our own team.
- ClaudeFather

Ok. Is he a star you would build around?

Is Barzal a star you build around?
- mickel25

Absolutely. Is he generational and ideal? No.. but you run Barzal with a coots as 2c or Hayes 2c and can definitely win with that.

Ok. Is he a star you would build around?
- mickel25

Is he a star you build around, such a dumb question. There’s 20 other guys on the team man, can he be you best player and you win games? Clearly.

Totally agree about flyers speed. Been saying that for years. Disagree on total rebuild. Players are slotted wrong because we lack a few top elite talent at key positions 1c and 1d. We get those and we have the secondary pieces. Are speed is fine for secondary pieces. Myers sanheim York provy bee tk Oscar laughts top prospects coming have good enough speed. Just need that elite talent and like you said learn to and be taught team defense. You can teach that. Speed and elite skill can not be taught. Question is how do we get the elite talent? Trade ? Fa? Tank and draft? I think team is too good to tank unless you trade away younger players and good contract player like tk coots bee etc. well if you’re gonna do that might as well try to use them to land too elite talent without full on tank and rebuild IMO my plan would be hope Seattle take one of the big 3 contracts then try to move the other 2 for cap space. Whatever cap space you can get without adding assets or picks. Even if you only save 50% on player deal. Those 3 leave you have at least 12 mil or more cap space. Can add speed in Fa on a couple players. Addition by subtraction. Then I would try to land that 1c or 1 d in package. Coots more than likely have to go. Go from there
- Stayin alive

You make good points and I agree with you about the lack of top end talent, in fact I have been posting about this since I joined this forum. I don't see any team trading elite talent to the Flyers unless that player wants out of their current situation, which may tell you something about their character. Thus the only way to get top end talent is to draft and develop. Now you can continue to pick 10-15 and hope you get lucky, or hope to get lucky with 2nd or 3rd round picks like Tampa and Boston got with Point, Kucherov and Marchand. Or you can tank to get into the top 5 pick and hope your timing is right and that top end player is there. Of course in 2017 there were a few top end players available for the Flyers to pick, but unfortunately Hextall didn't pick one, so there is no guarantee.

Absolutely. Is he generational and ideal? No.. but you run Barzal with a coots as 2c or Hayes 2c and can definitely win with that.
- Stayin alive

Barzal is the type of modern NHL player you need on your roster, fast, skilled and tenacious!

Is he a star you build around, such a dumb question. There’s 20 other guys on the team man, can he be you best player and you win games? Clearly.
- ClaudeFather

That is the answer I was looking for. Not a star player. Just a really good player on a winning team.

Just to clarify, it takes a whole team to win.

I largely agree. Barzal is a danger any time he steps on the ice. The Nelson line is fast. Boston, however, could have done a better job in neutral ice.

Look at the forwards now: all except TK are average to below average in that regard. However, when have the Flyers even had a single line that had speed? I don't think they had one the last 20 years. As such, the problem of speed may be an organizational problem.
- PT21

Well, I don't think Holmgren, Hextall or his scouts really valued speed over other attributes. Instead it appears they value size and 200 foot play more. What has resulted is a very slow team with a bunch of complimentary players, but no top end talent, no speed and certainly no tenacity. I mean last night, the Islanders looked like a swarm of killer bees, all over the Bruins and stinging frequently. I do think Fletcher's drafting has been better in this regard, but up to now no elite talent yet. Maybe Foerster, we'll see.

That is the answer I was looking for. Not a star player. Just a really good player on a winning team.

Just to clarify, it takes a whole team to win.
- mickel25

People get too caught up with star , superstar, generational nonsense. It’s about the team.

Well, I don't think Holmgren, Hextall or his scouts really valued speed over other attributes. Instead it appears they value size and 200 foot play more. What has resulted is a very slow team with a bunch of complimentary players, but no top end talent, no speed and certainly no tenacity. I mean last night, the Islanders looked like a swarm of killer B's, all over the Bruins and stinging frequently.
- jd250

200 foot player is the flyers favorite skill set ! It’s done wonders for us

People get too caught up with star , superstar, generational nonsense. It’s about the team.
- ClaudeFather

100% agree

That is the answer I was looking for. Not a star player. Just a really good player on a winning team.

Just to clarify, it takes a whole team to win.
- mickel25

He *could* develop into a star player. He has so much talent that sometimes I feel he doesn't know how to harness it.

"It takes a whole team to win" is such a cliche... As opposed to what? A team with less than all its members? A team with some players missing limbs?

Less facetiously, you need both. A cohesive team where each player does his part, and high end talent. Look at all the teams that have won. With the possible exception of Blues, every team has a first ballot HOFer, usually several.

Its amusing to me to see Trotz being lauded as a inspirational coach now. Trotz has had his teams always play the same way: very cohesive, attention to team defense, balanced forward corps, physical. He did not always have the speed he does now, but sometimes he had much better defense than what he has now with Isles.

What was missing in those Preds teams? High end talent up front. Remember Legwand, and Erat, and Tootoo and Mike Fisher and Radulov and Hornquist and all those stiffs? Not a single piece that did not play a team game. Most of them defensively responsible.

Many times, those teams went deep in playoffs. How many titles did he win? ZERO! He was the Andy Reid of hockey.

When did he finally break through? When he coached a team with not just a generational but a once in a lifetime type winger, and one of the best offensive defencemen of recent years, with almost a ppg average over several seasons. Plus several franchise type players.

So, that there should tell you something.

Well, I don't think Holmgren, Hextall or his scouts really valued speed over other attributes. Instead it appears they value size and 200 foot play more. What has resulted is a very slow team with a bunch of complimentary players, but no top end talent, no speed and certainly no tenacity. I mean last night, the Islanders looked like a swarm of killer bees, all over the Bruins and stinging frequently. I do think Fletcher's drafting has been better in this regard, but up to now no elite talent yet. Maybe Foerster, we'll see.
- jd250

This 200 foot game is a recent phenomenon. Else, Briere would not have been here for so long. Also, Hartnell, and JVR, esp prior to this year and so on.

I have to wonder what is going on in this organization. Why can't they ever get a guy like Babcock or Yzerman or Lamoriello in the fold? Why is so much of the brains trust composed of old Flyers greats? Why do we never, ever get a European player who turns out to be a star, instead of bringing in guys like Jiri Dopita and German Rubstov? What are they doing to bolster their scouting?

He *could* develop into a star player. He has so much talent that sometimes I feel he doesn't know how to harness it.

"It takes a whole team to win" is such a cliche... As opposed to what? A team with less than all its members? A team with some players missing limbs?

Less facetiously, you need both. A cohesive team where each player does his part, and high end talent. Look at all the teams that have won. With the possible exception of Blues, every team has a first ballot HOFer, usually several.

Its amusing to me to see Trotz being lauded as a inspirational coach now. Trotz has had his teams always play the same way: very cohesive, attention to team defense, balanced forward corps, physical. He did not always have the speed he does now, but sometimes he had much better defense than what he has now with Isles.

What was missing in those Preds teams? High end talent up front. Remember Legwand, and Erat, and Tootoo and Mike Fisher and Radulov and Hornquist and all those stiffs? Not a single piece that did not play a team game. Most of them defensively responsible.

Many times, those teams went deep in playoffs. How many titles did he win? ZERO! He was the Andy Reid of hockey.

When did he finally break through? When he coached a team with not just a generational but a once in a lifetime type winger, and one of the best offensive defencemen of recent years, with almost a ppg average over several seasons. Plus several franchise type players.

So, that there should tell you something.
- PT21

So you are saying you need talented players and depth to win a Stanley Cup? Generally, you will not win unless you have both.

My comment is more geared towards the general Philly fan more than you. A general Philly fan thinks that the best players should simply "play better" and that will lead to more playoff success.

So you are saying you need talented players and depth to win a Stanley Cup? Generally, you will not win unless you have both.

My comment is more geared towards the general Philly fan more than you. A general Philly fan thinks that the best players should simply "play better" and that will lead to more playoff success.
- mickel25

Sure. We all kind of address audiences in our heads with our Internet blabbing...

I, for my turn, was addressing the implicit idea some here favor that if our players all play a team game, we could be contenders. And I personally don't think we can.

Incidentally, I know nothing about this stuff, but based on idle glimpses here and there, esp. r/hockey, I hear that 2022 and 2023 drafts are likely stacked. If they really want to rebuild, this might be a good time.

Sure. We all kind of address audiences in our heads with our Internet blabbing...

I, for my turn, was addressing the implicit idea some here favor that if our players all play a team game, we could be contenders. And I personally don't think we can.

Incidentally, I know nothing about this stuff, but based on idle glimpses here and there, esp. r/hockey, I hear that 2022 and 2023 drafts are likely stacked. If they really want to rebuild, this might be a good time.
- PT21

I think playing as a "team" is the baseline requirement for winning in the NHL. You can't win unless everyone buys into doing the little things. You need to add the proper talent and depth to that scenario before you can win the cup.

Alec Martinez is a UFA, that's who i want playing with Provy, and don't have to give up a ton of assets like a seth jones would cost. And has won a cup, and maybe another cup after this year.

Alec Martinez is a UFA, that's who i want playing with Provy, and don't have to give up a ton of assets like a seth jones would cost. And has won a cup, and maybe another cup after this year.
- bradster

Not sure I want him playing top pair minutes at his age but I like him as a player. Very much a veteran presence that could help this team.

Not sure I want him playing top pair minutes at his age but I like him as a player. Very much a veteran presence that could help this team.
- mickel25

Give him 5v5 ice time, 18-19 min a night, but would sure be the calming vet presence we need. He has been there done that, which i think is missing. Love him as a FA, and no assets leaving to get him.

This 200 foot game is a recent phenomenon. Else, Briere would not have been here for so long. Also, Hartnell, and JVR, esp prior to this year and so on.

I have to wonder what is going on in this organization. Why can't they ever get a guy like Babcock or Yzerman or Lamoriello in the fold? Why is so much of the brains trust composed of old Flyers greats? Why do we never, ever get a European player who turns out to be a star, instead of bringing in guys like Jiri Dopita and German Rubstov? What are they doing to bolster their scouting?
- PT21

Good question. I think Ed Snider was a family guy and treated his work like his extended family. He liked to keep things with people he was comfortable with, thus you had Clarke for so many years, and then it was passed on to Holmgren and then onto Hextall. Holmgren and Clarke have been with the same organization since they were drafted in the 1960s-70s, think about that for a moment. Fletcher is not really an outsider since Clarke groomed him. This to me is the biggest issue with the Flyers; they still have Clarke and Holmgren influencing things behind the scenes, guys who still like drafting Canadian players and look at Russian players and Lou Lamoriello as the enemy. You may say, well Holmgren and Clarke are just consulting, or have empty roles, but Fletcher's hiring had Clarke written all over it.

However I am willing to give Fletcher this off season to get the right players and make the right moves. If he does I will be right there with him, even if it takes a few years to turn this around. If not we should call for his ouster! The Islanders, Avalanche and Lightning are the blue print to success in the NHL in 2021, players we get or draft should be measured against this.

I think playing as a "team" is the baseline requirement for winning in the NHL. You can't win unless everyone buys into doing the little things. You need to add the proper talent and depth to that scenario before you can win the cup.
- mickel25

The phrase is a little nebulous, "playing as a team". Would you say that this requires forwards to be diligent back checkers? That would rule out Kane and Kucherov for the most part. Finish your checks? That would rule out Kessel. Not take undisciplined penalties? Malkin does so all the time, especially in away games. Not be top heavy? Again, Pens during their 2nd cup run were grotesquely unbalanced in star power.

I would reverse the priorities you mention above. You need to first have talent and then add the team and depth and physicality around it.

People get too caught up with star , superstar, generational nonsense. It’s about the team.
- ClaudeFather

Speed and talent can win. But speed and top elite talent always beat out just speed and talent. Isles got as far as they can go with this type team. They will lose out tb because tb offers same as isle but also has more elite players at key positions

However I am willing to give Fletcher this off season to get the right players and make the right moves. If he does I will be right there with him, even if it takes a few years to turn this around. If not we should call for his ouster! The Islanders, Avalanche and Lightning are the blue print to success in the NHL in 2021, players we get or draft should be measured against this.
- jd250

This offseason is important. Next offseason is really the pivot point for this franchise.

The Avalanche and Lightning should be the blue print. I really like the Isles but they will not beat the Lightning or the AVS or VGK. All three match them in intensity and defensive prowess . They outmatch them in talent and goaltending.

This 200 foot game is a recent phenomenon. Else, Briere would not have been here for so long. Also, Hartnell, and JVR, esp prior to this year and so on.

I have to wonder what is going on in this organization. Why can't they ever get a guy like Babcock or Yzerman or Lamoriello in the fold? Why is so much of the brains trust composed of old Flyers greats? Why do we never, ever get a European player who turns out to be a star, instead of bringing in guys like Jiri Dopita and German Rubstov? What are they doing to bolster their scouting?
- PT21

Their European scouts were pushing for miro to be drafted. Hexy went with nopa

Good question. I think Ed Snider was a family guy and treated his work like his extended family. He liked to keep things with people he was comfortable with, thus you had Clarke for so many years, and then it was passed on to Holmgren and then onto Hextall. Holmgren and Clarke have been with the same organization since they were drafted in the 1960s-70s, think about that for a moment. Fletcher is not really an outsider since Clarke groomed him. This to me is the biggest issue with the Flyers; they still have Clarke and Holmgren influencing things behind the scenes, guys who still like drafting Canadian players and look at Russian players and Lou Lamoriello as the enemy. You may say, well Holmgren and Clarke are just consulting, or have empty roles, but Fletcher's hiring had Clarke written all over it.

However I am willing to give Fletcher this off season to get the right players and make the right moves. If he does I will be right there with him, even if it takes a few years to turn this around. If not we should call for his ouster! The Islanders, Avalanche and Lightning are the blue print to success in the NHL in 2021, players we get or draft should be measured against this.
- jd250

I feel Snider represented a paradigm that had passed before his own passing: entrepreneurial passionate owner, gut and instinct guy, large-hearted, willing to spend whatever it took. The opposite of an analytics guy, who builds in increments, in short.

He wanted Bryzgalov, he did not want Giroux and Voracek to be "grapes that die on the vine," he would never do a full rebuild and so on. He did not understand the dynamics of the salary cap age.

The sports model is already confused with the tension between revenue and fandom. If you confuse it further with parochialism and tribal loyalty and so on, its even more difficult.

Alec Martinez is a UFA, that's who i want playing with Provy, and don't have to give up a ton of assets like a seth jones would cost. And has won a cup, and maybe another cup after this year.
- bradster

I have been watching him play because I think the Flyers could use him. At 33 the contract has to be right but my one thing with older players is can they skate and he can...